How do you know these things
?Conversion from S2 1,3S into 1,3HF?
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gamma a.i.
- Posts: 888
- Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 14:18
Re: Conversion from S2 1,3S into 1,3HF?
no calorie loaded fattery intended, but a question!
How do you know these things?
How do you know these things
?Re: Conversion from S2 1,3S into 1,3HF?
gamma a.i. Wrote:
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> How do you know these things?
A combination of stumbling around in the dark and studying the factory parts catalogues.
When we dropped the subframe on my 1.6HF, I noticed a number of things that were incorrect (like a gearbox form an S2 berlina, to name one). So I set about checking all the major components against the parts catalogue, and that's when I discovered that my subframe towers had the "wrong" parts number. I conferred with Neil Cundy in the UK, and he checked his and a couple of neighboring 1.6HFs, and they all had the "wrong" parts number. This made it perfecty obvious that the subframe towers for the 1.6HF had the same suspension mounting points as all the other Coupe subframe towers. And it also suggested that 818.540 subframe towers didn't actually exist, even though they were noted in the parts catalogue.
I also happen to have the subframe towers from an early works prototype 1.6HF race car. These have no parts numbers at all, but of course they have the same suspension mounting points as the ones already on my car. Where they differ, however, is the position of the rubber suspension stops; unlike my car, the prototype towers had lower suspension stops acting on the lower wishbones. That's one of the reasons that I didn't consider using them, even though I have the racing neg-camber wishbones that match. But a check of the S1 parts catalogue (tavola 44) confirmed all early Fulvias had the lower suspension stops (and lower wishbones with a stop "pad"). Starting with the 1.3S and 1.6HF, all Fulvias had the upper suspension stops.
Put all that together and it's clear that the 1.3HF didn't have a unique subframe tower design. But it does mean that Hans was right in thinking that making an S2 into a "perfect 1.3HF clone" would require changing to early subframe towers and early wishbones. But that's merely one more reason why I'd argue a 1.3HF clone is not the way to go.
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> How do you know these things?
A combination of stumbling around in the dark and studying the factory parts catalogues.
When we dropped the subframe on my 1.6HF, I noticed a number of things that were incorrect (like a gearbox form an S2 berlina, to name one). So I set about checking all the major components against the parts catalogue, and that's when I discovered that my subframe towers had the "wrong" parts number. I conferred with Neil Cundy in the UK, and he checked his and a couple of neighboring 1.6HFs, and they all had the "wrong" parts number. This made it perfecty obvious that the subframe towers for the 1.6HF had the same suspension mounting points as all the other Coupe subframe towers. And it also suggested that 818.540 subframe towers didn't actually exist, even though they were noted in the parts catalogue.
I also happen to have the subframe towers from an early works prototype 1.6HF race car. These have no parts numbers at all, but of course they have the same suspension mounting points as the ones already on my car. Where they differ, however, is the position of the rubber suspension stops; unlike my car, the prototype towers had lower suspension stops acting on the lower wishbones. That's one of the reasons that I didn't consider using them, even though I have the racing neg-camber wishbones that match. But a check of the S1 parts catalogue (tavola 44) confirmed all early Fulvias had the lower suspension stops (and lower wishbones with a stop "pad"). Starting with the 1.3S and 1.6HF, all Fulvias had the upper suspension stops.
Put all that together and it's clear that the 1.3HF didn't have a unique subframe tower design. But it does mean that Hans was right in thinking that making an S2 into a "perfect 1.3HF clone" would require changing to early subframe towers and early wishbones. But that's merely one more reason why I'd argue a 1.3HF clone is not the way to go.
Re: Conversion from S2 1,3S into 1,3HF?
The suspension stop acting on the lower wishbone was a design error for two reasons:
1) it acts halfway the wishbone. During serious rallying the wishbone will bend.
2) when the stop hits the wishbone there is a high pulling force on the 3 M6 studs keeping the lower suspension ball joint in place.
The proper place for the stop is right over the upper suspension ball joint.
I see early rally 1.3S cars with the old stop, later ones with the new stop. My guess is that it was changed on the 1.6HF and at (nearly) the same time on the rallye 1.3S
1) it acts halfway the wishbone. During serious rallying the wishbone will bend.
2) when the stop hits the wishbone there is a high pulling force on the 3 M6 studs keeping the lower suspension ball joint in place.
The proper place for the stop is right over the upper suspension ball joint.
I see early rally 1.3S cars with the old stop, later ones with the new stop. My guess is that it was changed on the 1.6HF and at (nearly) the same time on the rallye 1.3S
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gamma a.i.
- Posts: 888
- Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 14:18
Re: Conversion from S2 1,3S into 1,3HF?
nice thread....
not wishing to make those who can not attend cry; but I will ...attend, that is, & hopefully have no reason to cry
Huib, since I am sure you will once again, tear up the countryside at your own event in several days; would you show me...in the parking lot, weather permitting, ... what is meant by the explanations above; not that I intend to modify my non HF S2, with parts that do nor with parts that don't exist.
not wishing to make those who can not attend cry; but I will ...attend, that is, & hopefully have no reason to cry
Huib, since I am sure you will once again, tear up the countryside at your own event in several days; would you show me...in the parking lot, weather permitting, ... what is meant by the explanations above; not that I intend to modify my non HF S2, with parts that do nor with parts that don't exist.
Re: Conversion from S2 1,3S into 1,3HF?
Huib,
I agree completely that the mechanics is all wrong with the early stop; they were right in changing it. And I'm sure your timeframe is exactly correct; my lower stop towers are from an early prototype 1,6HF, built in very late 1968 or very early 1969--the same timeframe as the 1,3HF.
I agree completely that the mechanics is all wrong with the early stop; they were right in changing it. And I'm sure your timeframe is exactly correct; my lower stop towers are from an early prototype 1,6HF, built in very late 1968 or very early 1969--the same timeframe as the 1,3HF.