Conversion from S2 1,3S into 1,3HF?

[fulviahans]

This may well be a silly question, anyhow I hope some of you can help with the following:

Reportedly, the factory made it possible for privateers to turn a normal Fulvia Coupe 1,3S into a HF - all the necessary parts could be bought from the Reparto Corse. But how much and what does a conversion include? Apart from engine tuning and changing the exhaust, some sources say that the front frame must be changed (into a cast alloy frame?), the wheel geometry and camber must also be changed, and that the standard 5 legged 'box in a Series 2 car is by no way similar to the one used in the 1,3 HFs? Finally, works HFs apparently drove with a different steering.

So, if anyone can point to a place where it's possible to compare ALL the technical details of a standard 1,3S and a 1,3 HF, I would be most grateful!

best,

fulviahans, Denmark

[Ed Levin]

Hans,

The best place to start would be with an S1 parts catalogue and dati tecnici guide (both available on CD on Viva-Lancia). Those will give you an good idea of the relatively little difference between an S1 1.3HF and a standard S1 1.3. There's no doubt that the works 1.3HFs had some special development pieces, but parts for the stradale 1.3HF would have been available straight out of the parts catalogue to anyone who wanted to convert (or just upgrade) their S1 1.3. Keep in mind, though, that this isn't the same as converting from an S2 1.3S.

I don't know what sources claim that the HFs had a cast alloy subframe, but I've hever heard of such a thing; the 1.3HF subframe was pressed steel, like every other Fulvia. However, there will be a number of detail differences between an S1 1.3HF subframe and an S2 1.3 subframe; the gearboxes are different (the 1.3HF had a 4-speed 'box), the S2 won't have the oil cooler mounting, &c. The 1.3HF suspension geometry and camber is the standard S1 geometry and camber--no different than a standard S1 1.3; only the S1 1.6HF had different front suspension, with negative camber geometry.

Most of the major differences were in body and interior. HFs had no sound deadening or insulation, except for a bit of fibre insulation in the footwell. They had acrylic windows at sides and rear, lightweight seats, an oil temperature gauge in place of the clock, and some other detail differences.

I believe it's true that the works cars used different steering arms--this was certainly the case with the 1.6HF, But converting this requires a lot of work, including modifying the body bulkhead for additional clearance, for relatively little difference (IIRC, 3.0 instead of 3.5 turns lock-to-lock).

[Geoff]

fulviahans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, if anyone can point to a place where it's
> possible to compare ALL the technical details of a
> standard 1,3S and a 1,3 HF, I would be most
> grateful!
>
> best,
>
> fulviahans, Denmark

Given that there is a healthy shadow industry in converting standards to HF's, one might be cautious in detailing such answers . Ed hit the mark well.

[fulviahans]

Hi Ed,

Thanks a lot for your detailed and knowing answer - I'm truly grateful. Now it's time to ponder a bit on how to go about it - so back to the drawing board!

best

Hans

[gamma a.i.]

I always come back to the same question...wish is ??? ... if you have a good original car, why modify it ?
OK, if you plan competition, I understand ... OK if you are restoring it anyway... but if it just 'something you want to do for the heck of doing it', once again I ask...why ?

I won't ask for Geoff's comments (if it the Geoff Lancististi I think it is); the Master of Lancia mods, who could make a Fulvia into a Gamma or versa-visa B)- if he decided to start a new project

[fulviahans]

Hi Gamma,

thanks for your reasonable question. As it is, I'm asking on behalf of a friend, who is already using his great Series 2 1,3S for track racing - and in a very promising way, too. He is naturally interested in looking at ways to take it all the way into a proper racing 1,3 HF, and so I'm just aiding a little in trying to find out how to do it, if possible.

Myself, I'm the lucky owner of a standard Series 1 1,3S in relatively good shape, with aluminium bonnet, trunk and doors, and I have no intention of modifying it at all. It's great fun to do a few hill climbs with the car, and as it's completely unrestored, it would be a pity to rebuilt it as a HF, in my view.

best,

fulviahans

[gamma a.i.]

great reply.... glad you gem will stay is it 'tis(tu)

does your friend have a lot of money & / or mechanical ability ? if so, I'd guess the sky is the limit, depending on the regs he has to / wishes to follow...for whatever country / governing body decides such things.

I once built a "monster" following no rules, requiringf that car (& sometimes me, as the slowest driver who even drove that car) to run in an "open, no restrictions class"...which is where we wished to run ! We still got "protested" for cheating...at every event ! Even though it was supposed to be a "just for fun" category (grrrr) of harmless racing
& we had invested pennies (& our own unpaid time) compared to the "rich-guys". We, the volunteers who built this hand-painted fiberglass swiss-cheese drilled "white whale" (referring the tail-spoiler(s) did it as a "fun-hobby" & a Tax-Deduction; while My fine (ha ha) Countrymen partook as an "Act of War" ... Oh Well; the car was very fast & others "became upset" !!!
OK; that was in "another life & time"; when slick tires & (used) wheels were free; long before my Fulvia Days.

Peter de Wit certainly has knowledge about what can / can not be done in the countries he drives in: he seems to "have been there & done it all" .

[Ed Levin]

Hans,

I'd suggest that your friend shouldn't really be thinking in terms of a "proper racing 1,3HF"--just a proper racing Fulvia. As I tried to explain in my earlier post, there's no magic to a 1.3HF; the HF was just a factory-homologated version of what any sensible race preparer would be looking to do: decrease weight and increase power. Your friend can easily do both without worrying about doing so to perfect 1,3HF spec.

The weight reduction is pretty simple.If his car doesn't already have alloy doors and lids, that would be an obvious place to start. As would either removing the side windows or changing them to acrylic; acrylic side windows and reas window are available from at least one vendoe (Rosso Corsa) or can be fabricated by any good plastics shop. On the interior, the possibilities are also pretty obvious.

Increasing power is much easier than it was in 1967, with numerous sources for higher-compression pistons, hotter cams, and better breathing--both induction and exhaust.

After your friend does all that (or at least some of it), he'll have a lightweight (OK; lighter weight) racing Fulvia. I'd have a big problem if he wanted to add a fake 1,3HF chassis plate and represent the car as a real 1,3HF. But as far as I'm concerned he could add as many "HF" stickers as he wanted to.

[fulvia a.i.]

many HF stickers would re-add already lost weight ha ha to the cars weight

in my hippy -daze we wood say "HF Stickers ? Oh yeah Man, they are SO HEAVY, like you know, they are just SO COOL Man" in our best Dennis Hopper EZ Rider Speak

I N'joyed, as always, reading Ed's well thought through thorough advice;)

[Ed Levin]

Hans,

I just figured out what you were thinking of with the question on changing the "cast alloy frame".

As I mentioned before, the HF subframe is stamped sheet steel, but of course the subframe towers that hold the suspension and the spring bridge are indeed cast aluminum alloy. But these cast towers wouldn't need to be changed. The S1 parts catalogue lists variant subframe towers, but the difference is mostly the location of the rubber suspension stop that hangs on the tower. On the early cars the stop is mounted low and acts on the lower wishbone; on the later cars (and all S2s) it's mounted high and acts on the upper wishbone.