you guys are pathetic and defeatist!
look in the German thread how the Delta is being advertised in Prague...one needs imagination and commitment.
how can you call yourselves salesmen if you only want to sell stuff which walks out the door without effort? it takes effort, attention to detail and passion...all lacking thee apparently. Here in Switzerland the 500s are selling like hot cakes, the Bravo is seen on the roads more, and more often and Fiat sales have overtaken Renault and Peugeot, not far behind Opel and are equal to Ford. Good product sells but it must also be properly marketed! A nearly forgotten brand must be easier to relaunch than a totally unknown brand which the Koreans have been managing quite nicely...Kia anyone? Once you have a complete range of Delta, new Ypsilon, new 'sport', new Musa it should be easier...I would agree selling the Delta on a stand alone basis would be a real challenge as the market segment you are launching a brand into is already limited by the audience you can target.
Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
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kmacb
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
I'm not a salesman, I work in spare parts. In Ireland I think Fiat have less than 3% of the market, Alfa sell about 500 units a year (if they are lucky). BMW outsells both of them. Believe me Lancia will stand no chance. As for being defeatist, I own and race a B20, try doing that on a budget...I cannot speak for the UK, but with our small population and with the current state of economics it will be difficult to recruit 'new' dealerships.
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Philip
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
enjoy the B20! I saw a B24S on the road in Lausanne last weekend...
one has to be optimistic otherwise one fails; Ireland is just a small market but small numbers all added together come to something...rather strange how despite 50 years of EU of sorts markets are still very parochial and rather closed etc.etc....why could Ireland not be managed from the UK for instance? save a lot of logistics...yes, currency differences and legal issues but still...and in any case, even if Fiat now only has 3% of a market it does not mean that there is no growth potential. Image building takes years and unfortunately, as we fully well know, image can also be trashed in a jiffy...
http://www.viva-lancia.com/lancia_fora/ ... 286&t=3286
one has to be optimistic otherwise one fails; Ireland is just a small market but small numbers all added together come to something...rather strange how despite 50 years of EU of sorts markets are still very parochial and rather closed etc.etc....why could Ireland not be managed from the UK for instance? save a lot of logistics...yes, currency differences and legal issues but still...and in any case, even if Fiat now only has 3% of a market it does not mean that there is no growth potential. Image building takes years and unfortunately, as we fully well know, image can also be trashed in a jiffy...
http://www.viva-lancia.com/lancia_fora/ ... 286&t=3286
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Koen
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Koen
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
Well done, Ireland !
Almost 3% marketshare for Fiat is better than the sales in Belgium (2.3 % in 2007).
In the first 9 months of 2008 the car sales for all branches in Belgium was +/- 440.000.
In Ireland : +/- 150.000.
This means that car sales in IRL are +/- 1/3 of B's car sales. Right ?
In 2007, Fiat sold 12.093 cars in Belgium, Alfa 6.543 and Lancia 2.658.
In % marketshare this means : Fiat 2.3%, Alfa 1.2 % and Lancia 0.5 %.
Related to IRL, the following sales should be achieved :
2.3% from 150.000 = 3.450 Fiat. But IRL did probably better : 3.0%
3.0% from 150.000 = 4.500 Fiat's sold in IRL in the first 9 months this year. Well done !
2.3% from 150.000 = 3.450 Alfa's. Only 500 in 2007 ? This year maybe better (e.g. Mito ?!?!)
0.5% from 150.000 = 750 Lancia's to sell in 9 months (or 1000 in a whole year).
Then IRL has the same % as Belgium, a country where BMW, Audi and Mercedes (each alone) also outsells the whole Fiat-Group.
So what ?
Almost 3% marketshare for Fiat is better than the sales in Belgium (2.3 % in 2007).
In the first 9 months of 2008 the car sales for all branches in Belgium was +/- 440.000.
In Ireland : +/- 150.000.
This means that car sales in IRL are +/- 1/3 of B's car sales. Right ?
In 2007, Fiat sold 12.093 cars in Belgium, Alfa 6.543 and Lancia 2.658.
In % marketshare this means : Fiat 2.3%, Alfa 1.2 % and Lancia 0.5 %.
Related to IRL, the following sales should be achieved :
2.3% from 150.000 = 3.450 Fiat. But IRL did probably better : 3.0%
3.0% from 150.000 = 4.500 Fiat's sold in IRL in the first 9 months this year. Well done !
2.3% from 150.000 = 3.450 Alfa's. Only 500 in 2007 ? This year maybe better (e.g. Mito ?!?!)
0.5% from 150.000 = 750 Lancia's to sell in 9 months (or 1000 in a whole year).
Then IRL has the same % as Belgium, a country where BMW, Audi and Mercedes (each alone) also outsells the whole Fiat-Group.
So what ?
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S4
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
So what, indeed. I see no reason to believe that Lancia's market share in Belgium, or any continental market, would be repeated in the UK/Ireland. I reiterate, the UK market is fundamentally different to the rest of Europe, with a far more pronounced anti-Italian bias and far more emphasis on brand image. Plus, no continental market carries the costs of building RHD cars, and the UK requires a surprisingly comprehensive dealer network relative to most Euro countries.
The bottom line is this. It's not a question of being optimistic or pessimistic, it is a question of facts and reality. Anyone with even half a brain within Fiat UK distanced themselves from this project long ago. They're the ones who have seen the projected figures (huge losses), what does that suggest to you? I might add that all of this refers to the situation pre-credit meltdown. Ireland's sales performance last month was off 40 per cent year-on-year, the market is down nearly 20 per cent for the year-to-date. You literally couldn't pick a worse time to relaunch a tarnished, largely un-cared-about brand if you tried.
"A nearly forgotten brand must be easier to relaunch than a totally unknown brand"
I hear this proposition all the time, and I fundamentally disagree with it. At least with a new brand you don't have the baggage of 20 years ago, you just have institutional baggage - e.g. if you're launching a new Chinese product, there is the problem (to a greater or lesser extent) of convincing people that Chinese does not necessarily equal poor quality. But when you relaunch a brand like Lancia, you have to combat the people with memories like elephants who remember the Daily Mirror, not to mention those who remember the 'grale and for whom the new Delta is not what they had in mind. In the US, a very sizeable proportion of the population will not consider a domestic product at ANY price - just think about that for a moment. Even an Alfa is regarded as an eccentric choice in the UK, and the amount of money thrown at their cause is eye-watering. Lancia has nothing like that sort of money and even more challenges to overcome, none of which I believe they are seriously prepared for. I've put my position and you are free to disagree, but I've seen nothing in the posts above which convinces me the whole idea is anything other than madness.
The bottom line is this. It's not a question of being optimistic or pessimistic, it is a question of facts and reality. Anyone with even half a brain within Fiat UK distanced themselves from this project long ago. They're the ones who have seen the projected figures (huge losses), what does that suggest to you? I might add that all of this refers to the situation pre-credit meltdown. Ireland's sales performance last month was off 40 per cent year-on-year, the market is down nearly 20 per cent for the year-to-date. You literally couldn't pick a worse time to relaunch a tarnished, largely un-cared-about brand if you tried.
"A nearly forgotten brand must be easier to relaunch than a totally unknown brand"
I hear this proposition all the time, and I fundamentally disagree with it. At least with a new brand you don't have the baggage of 20 years ago, you just have institutional baggage - e.g. if you're launching a new Chinese product, there is the problem (to a greater or lesser extent) of convincing people that Chinese does not necessarily equal poor quality. But when you relaunch a brand like Lancia, you have to combat the people with memories like elephants who remember the Daily Mirror, not to mention those who remember the 'grale and for whom the new Delta is not what they had in mind. In the US, a very sizeable proportion of the population will not consider a domestic product at ANY price - just think about that for a moment. Even an Alfa is regarded as an eccentric choice in the UK, and the amount of money thrown at their cause is eye-watering. Lancia has nothing like that sort of money and even more challenges to overcome, none of which I believe they are seriously prepared for. I've put my position and you are free to disagree, but I've seen nothing in the posts above which convinces me the whole idea is anything other than madness.
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Philip
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
if you were in the market for a car in the Delta's category would you buy it if were available in the UK?
the 'baggage' you refer to goes back nearly 30 years to the early Betas...most of the target audience couldn't even read then...the British press loves digging up the past even though it has no relevance to the present...the last Lancias sold in the UK were the Thema and Dedra...I think the Dedra's biggest obstacle on the British market was its name, whilst the Thema got pretty good press...I owned a Thema Turbo and reliability and rust protection were excellent...I sold it after 11 years and it still looked new.
The problem must be in some convoluted British logic...look how they ignored the Rover 75, essentially an excellent product...in Germany the Rover 75 sold very respectably because of the BMW connection although the reputation of British cars was totally shot after the Austin/MG Montego, yet Rover's heartland abandoned it and you see where the British car industry is now. I don't deny that relaunching Lancia in the UK would be tough but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
the 'baggage' you refer to goes back nearly 30 years to the early Betas...most of the target audience couldn't even read then...the British press loves digging up the past even though it has no relevance to the present...the last Lancias sold in the UK were the Thema and Dedra...I think the Dedra's biggest obstacle on the British market was its name, whilst the Thema got pretty good press...I owned a Thema Turbo and reliability and rust protection were excellent...I sold it after 11 years and it still looked new.
The problem must be in some convoluted British logic...look how they ignored the Rover 75, essentially an excellent product...in Germany the Rover 75 sold very respectably because of the BMW connection although the reputation of British cars was totally shot after the Austin/MG Montego, yet Rover's heartland abandoned it and you see where the British car industry is now. I don't deny that relaunching Lancia in the UK would be tough but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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S4
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
"if you were in the market for a car in the Delta's category would you buy it if were available in the UK?"
If I wanted a new family car, sure, I'd look at it. But then you might hope so, considering I'm posting on this forum. Anyway, I'm not in the market for one, and more to the point, I'm not British...
The big problem with relaunching in the UK and essentially saying, "Well, you never know, it might work, so on that basis we should try", is that it basically assumes zero opportunity cost, when in reality this venture has huge opportunity costs, especially fiscal. Relaunching a brand across the Channel is not something you do with a couple of bob you found behind the sofa, we're talking about a sum in the region £150-200 million. There is, moreover, absolutely no guarantee that this will not be money flushed down the pan, and plenty of reasons (to my mind) why it will be. With a brand as resource-scarce as Lancia, the question then becomes (or at least should become): Is this the best way to grow the marque? I maintain that it is not, and that there are far greater chances of success, with much less risk, by spending the money on the sales network and the customer experience in continental Western Europe instead.
If I wanted a new family car, sure, I'd look at it. But then you might hope so, considering I'm posting on this forum. Anyway, I'm not in the market for one, and more to the point, I'm not British...
The big problem with relaunching in the UK and essentially saying, "Well, you never know, it might work, so on that basis we should try", is that it basically assumes zero opportunity cost, when in reality this venture has huge opportunity costs, especially fiscal. Relaunching a brand across the Channel is not something you do with a couple of bob you found behind the sofa, we're talking about a sum in the region £150-200 million. There is, moreover, absolutely no guarantee that this will not be money flushed down the pan, and plenty of reasons (to my mind) why it will be. With a brand as resource-scarce as Lancia, the question then becomes (or at least should become): Is this the best way to grow the marque? I maintain that it is not, and that there are far greater chances of success, with much less risk, by spending the money on the sales network and the customer experience in continental Western Europe instead.
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kmacb
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
In a way, I kinda hope they do come back, my first Lancia was a Beta saloon and I have fond memories of it, I also had a few Deltas and Themas along the way.
On a different topic altogether, and Im not sure if I should be even posting this here, but I'm on the lookout for a Seicento Elettra, has anyone here ever seen one for sale, or even seen one in the flesh. I know Fiat sold very few of them...
On a different topic altogether, and Im not sure if I should be even posting this here, but I'm on the lookout for a Seicento Elettra, has anyone here ever seen one for sale, or even seen one in the flesh. I know Fiat sold very few of them...
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Philip
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
generally speaking, why would the Germans be more likely to buy it than the Brits?
the fact that Lancia are investing in several western and eastern European markets could start generating the profits which would allow a re-launch in markets uch the UK which is after all the 3rd or 4th largest market in W. Europe or Japan which can't be ignored just as the USA can't be ignored in the long run (by the Fiat Group).
the fact that Lancia are investing in several western and eastern European markets could start generating the profits which would allow a re-launch in markets uch the UK which is after all the 3rd or 4th largest market in W. Europe or Japan which can't be ignored just as the USA can't be ignored in the long run (by the Fiat Group).