Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
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Philip
Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
does anyone know anything more concrete about these rumours? apparently with the softening of the market, Fiat might be getting cold feet in reintroducing Lancia into the UK and other right hand drive markets next year.
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S4
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
Bringing Lancia back to the UK has always been a mad (as in insane) idea. Marchionne is still keen and is the key driving force behind it, but the proposal has a LOT of detractors within Fiat Auto UK who can see the impending disaster before it unfolds - there is simply no enthusiasm for it. Who can blame them, when they recently ran the projected numbers through the wringer and came up with a massive projected loss (and that's just for the first year).
For what it's worth, I agree with them. Even leaving aside the impending econolypse, Lancia in its current form does not stand one chance in the UK - not with its ingrained anti-Italian, pro-German prejudices, not with its memories of the rust debacle, and certainly not when the dealer network they have lined up mostly can't even cope with Alfa properly and really isn't at all enthused about a second albatross around their necks.
IMHO, Lancia would be far, far better off spending the money seriously beefing up their dealer and distribution networks in the big continental markets (France, Germany, Spain, etc), having some really good customer days and the like, and concentrating on expanding into Eastern Europe, than this over-ambitious folly.
For what it's worth, I agree with them. Even leaving aside the impending econolypse, Lancia in its current form does not stand one chance in the UK - not with its ingrained anti-Italian, pro-German prejudices, not with its memories of the rust debacle, and certainly not when the dealer network they have lined up mostly can't even cope with Alfa properly and really isn't at all enthused about a second albatross around their necks.
IMHO, Lancia would be far, far better off spending the money seriously beefing up their dealer and distribution networks in the big continental markets (France, Germany, Spain, etc), having some really good customer days and the like, and concentrating on expanding into Eastern Europe, than this over-ambitious folly.
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Philip
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
would it be cheaper for them to expand into eastern Europe than the UK etc when the car is already engineered for RHD? your logic does not wash. Furthermore the Uk is not the only RHD market...there are Japan, Australia, S.Africa, India, Hong Kong, Singapore plus smaller markets like Ireland, Cyprus, Malta... I do agree with you about the necessity to have a super dealer network and support otherwise it would definitely be folly. The rust stories go so far back that they by now should be in the history books...after all, Fiats are not exactly rusting and falling apart, nor are Alfas...more likely a Mercedes these days...in Germany at least the E-Class is not getting too much positive press when it comes to rust.
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Dean
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
Philip wrote:
"The rust stories go so far back that they by now should be in the history books...after all, Fiats are not exactly rusting and falling apart, nor are Alfas...more likely a Mercedes these days...in Germany at least the E-Class is not getting too much positive press when it comes to rust."
...and the A- & B-Class
Dean
"The rust stories go so far back that they by now should be in the history books...after all, Fiats are not exactly rusting and falling apart, nor are Alfas...more likely a Mercedes these days...in Germany at least the E-Class is not getting too much positive press when it comes to rust."
...and the A- & B-Class
Dean
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S4
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
Hi Philip,
Firstly, just because the car has been engineered to be RHD-capable, does not mean the tooling for same has been bought or paid for. Making a car RHD-capable basically means that during the design phase they considered the possibility of the steering column going through the water pump, or whatever, and found that it wasn't an issue. In fact this is a non-issue in the first place because the entire front end, including the windscreen, firewall, strut mounts, and engine mounts, is pure Bravo - this is quite evident if you look at the underbonnet area of both cars side-by-side.
The UK is not the only RHD market, but it is the main one - and it is certainly a prerequisite for any RHD relaunch. The only others of any consequence for Lancia are Japan and Australia/New Zealand - and the latter would amount to a few hundred units a year at most. The others you listed would barely register annual unit sales in double digits. If the business case for the UK does not add up, there will be no RHD Lancias - this is a basic reality. And the fact is, right now, the business case most certainly does not add up. Moreover, the impending global recession does nothing to convince me that things are likely to improve any time soon.
Finally, I frankly think you overestimate the intelligence of the average consumer. Until recently, I ran a Beta as a daily driver, so I feel qualified to comment on wilful ignorance masquerading as 'humour'. If it actually makes it over, the Delta will be slagged in the UK press as a tinselled Bravo - this is 100% predictable, in fact some of the UK reviews have already laid the foundations for the equally inevitable "We told you so" (a big shout out to the good folks at Autocar). Fiat has spent the kind of money in the UK over the last few years (decades) that would make Croesus wince, yet what do they have to show for it? A market share that resolutely refuses to budge above 3 per cent, including Alfa's frankly pathetic contribution. And Alfa mightn't have a particularly stellar image in the UK (to put it mildly), but it's stratospheric compared with Lannie's. The rust story still resonates because it gets brought up alongside every mention of Lancia in the Blighty press. Don't believe me? Do a google on 'Lancia' and 'rust' and see how many contemporary stories come up, including reviews of the Delta. Actually, while you're at it, have a browse of some English-language automotive forums and see what their take on the Delta is. It'll help to shed some light on why, at this point, I think Lancia's relaunch has absolutely no hope and why Fiat are right to put it on ice.
Firstly, just because the car has been engineered to be RHD-capable, does not mean the tooling for same has been bought or paid for. Making a car RHD-capable basically means that during the design phase they considered the possibility of the steering column going through the water pump, or whatever, and found that it wasn't an issue. In fact this is a non-issue in the first place because the entire front end, including the windscreen, firewall, strut mounts, and engine mounts, is pure Bravo - this is quite evident if you look at the underbonnet area of both cars side-by-side.
The UK is not the only RHD market, but it is the main one - and it is certainly a prerequisite for any RHD relaunch. The only others of any consequence for Lancia are Japan and Australia/New Zealand - and the latter would amount to a few hundred units a year at most. The others you listed would barely register annual unit sales in double digits. If the business case for the UK does not add up, there will be no RHD Lancias - this is a basic reality. And the fact is, right now, the business case most certainly does not add up. Moreover, the impending global recession does nothing to convince me that things are likely to improve any time soon.
Finally, I frankly think you overestimate the intelligence of the average consumer. Until recently, I ran a Beta as a daily driver, so I feel qualified to comment on wilful ignorance masquerading as 'humour'. If it actually makes it over, the Delta will be slagged in the UK press as a tinselled Bravo - this is 100% predictable, in fact some of the UK reviews have already laid the foundations for the equally inevitable "We told you so" (a big shout out to the good folks at Autocar). Fiat has spent the kind of money in the UK over the last few years (decades) that would make Croesus wince, yet what do they have to show for it? A market share that resolutely refuses to budge above 3 per cent, including Alfa's frankly pathetic contribution. And Alfa mightn't have a particularly stellar image in the UK (to put it mildly), but it's stratospheric compared with Lannie's. The rust story still resonates because it gets brought up alongside every mention of Lancia in the Blighty press. Don't believe me? Do a google on 'Lancia' and 'rust' and see how many contemporary stories come up, including reviews of the Delta. Actually, while you're at it, have a browse of some English-language automotive forums and see what their take on the Delta is. It'll help to shed some light on why, at this point, I think Lancia's relaunch has absolutely no hope and why Fiat are right to put it on ice.
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Philip
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
well, according to this article, things still seems to be on track...
Autocar 15 October 2008:
Lancia is planning to build its range up to five models, adding a coupé and an SUV by 2012 as part of a bid to restore annual sales volume to around 300,000 cars a year from today’s 120,000.
The plan is being overseen by brand boss Olivier François but has yet to be fully approved by Fiat Group chief Sergio Marchionne.
The project builds on progress made with the new Bravo-based Lancia Delta, launched recently in mainland Europe and due in the UK as a right-hand-drive model in summer next year.
If François’ plan is approved, the range will eventually comprise three mainstream models — Ypsilon, the Delta and a Fiat Punto-based supermini between them — plus a coupé (codenamed Fulvietta) that reprises the look of the new Fulvia concept shown in Frankfurt in 2003, and a Bravo-based SUV crossover. Despite recent anti-SUV sentiment, François believes that reliable demand will continue for smaller, lighter four-wheel-drive models.
Like the Delta, whose generous proportions straddle the C and D segments, the new Ypsilon (A/B) and new supermini (B/C) will also link two classes, offering unusually large cabins as part of their luxury packages. Lancia will also use avant garde design and plush specifications to attract customers, leaving high performance and sportiness to Alfa Romeo.
Before the current sales slump, Lancia was targeting 150,000 sales in ’08, heading for 180,000 next year and reaching 300,000 (with the help of new models) soon after 2010. Now it may take longer to achieve its goals.
Autocar 15 October 2008:
Lancia is planning to build its range up to five models, adding a coupé and an SUV by 2012 as part of a bid to restore annual sales volume to around 300,000 cars a year from today’s 120,000.
The plan is being overseen by brand boss Olivier François but has yet to be fully approved by Fiat Group chief Sergio Marchionne.
The project builds on progress made with the new Bravo-based Lancia Delta, launched recently in mainland Europe and due in the UK as a right-hand-drive model in summer next year.
If François’ plan is approved, the range will eventually comprise three mainstream models — Ypsilon, the Delta and a Fiat Punto-based supermini between them — plus a coupé (codenamed Fulvietta) that reprises the look of the new Fulvia concept shown in Frankfurt in 2003, and a Bravo-based SUV crossover. Despite recent anti-SUV sentiment, François believes that reliable demand will continue for smaller, lighter four-wheel-drive models.
Like the Delta, whose generous proportions straddle the C and D segments, the new Ypsilon (A/B) and new supermini (B/C) will also link two classes, offering unusually large cabins as part of their luxury packages. Lancia will also use avant garde design and plush specifications to attract customers, leaving high performance and sportiness to Alfa Romeo.
Before the current sales slump, Lancia was targeting 150,000 sales in ’08, heading for 180,000 next year and reaching 300,000 (with the help of new models) soon after 2010. Now it may take longer to achieve its goals.
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Philip
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
altjough I live on the 'continent' I am very familiar with the British press and they were not that negative about the new Delta, more on the positive side I would say...and I know all about stupid UK press which brings up rust and Lancia regularly, just as much as the continental press criticise the new Delta that its not an Integrale whilst most Delta I and IIs were 'just normal ' cars...one can go on and on...
but if we don't fight and educate the press (which always has to dig up some sensation) and the misguided public and not steer them to a positive 'sensation' then the battle may be lost. A lot of image issues are propagated as much by word of mouth as by the press or advertising.
if a brand like Skoda can be reinvented, how much more Lancia which has a far more illustrious past and potential future if properly nurtured...
but if we don't fight and educate the press (which always has to dig up some sensation) and the misguided public and not steer them to a positive 'sensation' then the battle may be lost. A lot of image issues are propagated as much by word of mouth as by the press or advertising.
if a brand like Skoda can be reinvented, how much more Lancia which has a far more illustrious past and potential future if properly nurtured...
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S4
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
Hi Philip,
Just trust me on the point that Fiat UK is deeply unenthusiastic about the whole prospect. The whole outpost is systematically unprofitable anyway, they don't want or need yet another futile money-sucking exercise (Alfa does that more than adequately on its own).
But in any case, you know as well as I do that initial reviews of an Italian car in the UK press count for squat. The 156 is my favourite case in point, but you really could use any mainstream Italian car - this tendency is universal. The 156 was showered with praise at launch (I still have the initial road tests to prove it), went head-to-head against the A4/3-Series et al, and won. Less than two years later the doubts were back - "Not quite as rounded as the class leaders", "An individual choice", "Only if you're brave", and all the other euphemisms they use to pull their punches. Same applies for the 159 in fact, which I clearly remember being described at the time as, "a massive step forward over the 156", with the implication that the 156 was terrible and you'd have to have been clinically insane to buy one. The fact is, if every single Italian car that was described as a gigantic leap forward over its predecessor actually was the car the press make it out to be, Fiat would be steamrollering the competition in Europe. I mean let's face it, the press were initially even complimentary about rubbish like the Stilo. No magazine is directly going to come out and say off the bat, "This car sucks" - they know which side their bread is buttered, after all.
Wait if/until it actually makes it across the Channel. Autocar weren't even complimentary to start with, so rest assured their rating will be revised downwards. Auto Express had the usual "can't match a BMW" qualifier, and in any event they tend towards the "Beat them hard, with a wet towel" school of critical journalism. CAR's review was surprisingly positive, I agree, but they've left themselves an out clause ("not really a driver's car").
You may take from all this, rightly, that I don't have a lot of time for the mainstream automotive press. Autocar ranks particularly lowly on my list of credible publications, so I'm not particularly inclined to waste time on dissembling their attempts at 'journalism'. Suffice to say that that particular article says precisely nothing new apart from basically raising, without foundation, the rumour of an SUV. As someone who actually works in the media for a living I consider it extraordinary, bordering on offensive, that any even remotely reputable publication would consider publishing an alleged news article with no cited sources whatsoever. Or rather, I would do, were it not the automotive media, which in recent times seems to have set a Sarah Palin-level bar for reporting quality.
If it looks like I have a downer on the whole modern Lancia thing, that is not true. But I happen to strongly believe that RHD aspirations are a total waste of time and the marque would be far better served spending the few hundred million euros we're talking about here to do continental Europe properly. Lancia's fashion-based marketing works well in Italy and France, and to a lesser extent Germany. It will be torn to shreds in the UK. A BMW is a status symbol in Blighty not because of the luxury aspect, but because every tosser with a 318d M-Sport likes to think he has an M3. Performance, and accompanying ride quality which (to borrow from Sniffpetrol) pushes the spine out the top of your head, are what sell in the UK - not overtly comfort-focused luxury. The Delta is, most assuredly, on a hiding to nothing...
Just trust me on the point that Fiat UK is deeply unenthusiastic about the whole prospect. The whole outpost is systematically unprofitable anyway, they don't want or need yet another futile money-sucking exercise (Alfa does that more than adequately on its own).
But in any case, you know as well as I do that initial reviews of an Italian car in the UK press count for squat. The 156 is my favourite case in point, but you really could use any mainstream Italian car - this tendency is universal. The 156 was showered with praise at launch (I still have the initial road tests to prove it), went head-to-head against the A4/3-Series et al, and won. Less than two years later the doubts were back - "Not quite as rounded as the class leaders", "An individual choice", "Only if you're brave", and all the other euphemisms they use to pull their punches. Same applies for the 159 in fact, which I clearly remember being described at the time as, "a massive step forward over the 156", with the implication that the 156 was terrible and you'd have to have been clinically insane to buy one. The fact is, if every single Italian car that was described as a gigantic leap forward over its predecessor actually was the car the press make it out to be, Fiat would be steamrollering the competition in Europe. I mean let's face it, the press were initially even complimentary about rubbish like the Stilo. No magazine is directly going to come out and say off the bat, "This car sucks" - they know which side their bread is buttered, after all.
Wait if/until it actually makes it across the Channel. Autocar weren't even complimentary to start with, so rest assured their rating will be revised downwards. Auto Express had the usual "can't match a BMW" qualifier, and in any event they tend towards the "Beat them hard, with a wet towel" school of critical journalism. CAR's review was surprisingly positive, I agree, but they've left themselves an out clause ("not really a driver's car").
You may take from all this, rightly, that I don't have a lot of time for the mainstream automotive press. Autocar ranks particularly lowly on my list of credible publications, so I'm not particularly inclined to waste time on dissembling their attempts at 'journalism'. Suffice to say that that particular article says precisely nothing new apart from basically raising, without foundation, the rumour of an SUV. As someone who actually works in the media for a living I consider it extraordinary, bordering on offensive, that any even remotely reputable publication would consider publishing an alleged news article with no cited sources whatsoever. Or rather, I would do, were it not the automotive media, which in recent times seems to have set a Sarah Palin-level bar for reporting quality.
If it looks like I have a downer on the whole modern Lancia thing, that is not true. But I happen to strongly believe that RHD aspirations are a total waste of time and the marque would be far better served spending the few hundred million euros we're talking about here to do continental Europe properly. Lancia's fashion-based marketing works well in Italy and France, and to a lesser extent Germany. It will be torn to shreds in the UK. A BMW is a status symbol in Blighty not because of the luxury aspect, but because every tosser with a 318d M-Sport likes to think he has an M3. Performance, and accompanying ride quality which (to borrow from Sniffpetrol) pushes the spine out the top of your head, are what sell in the UK - not overtly comfort-focused luxury. The Delta is, most assuredly, on a hiding to nothing...
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Philip
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
I've driven the Delta 1.4turbo...where the idea of 'comfort' comes I don't know...even the sales people emphasise performance more...and the steering is unfortunately nothing outstanding. You are right about the advertising tack which I feel lacks what it takes to bring in the buyers...in the German forum there is a discussion going on at the moment about the German press which pilloried the Delta...(Germans like 'norms' and in the Delta's case that is the Golf, so anything which varies from their ideal automatically fails on points...a very naive way of measuring merit in a car) going to be tough but I would still hope that there would be sufficient customers for Lancias generally if they had a complete range.
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kmacb
Re: Right hand drive Lancia reintroduction in balance...
I have to agree with S4. I work for a Fiat dealership here in Ireland, and while a few die-hard enthuasists await the arrival of Lancias return. I almost hope it never happens. We have trouble trying to sell Fiat 500's, never mind Bravo's, trying to re-introduce an almost long forgotton brand is madness. If they managed to sell 10 a year I'd be shocked.