Chassis: 818630004187
Engine: 818303064486
Mileage: 10800 kms (original)
Hi
I am having my S2 1.3S coupe head overhauled (white smoke / low compression on 1 / 2 (120/95 psi) Never overheated. No oil / coolant mixture.
The garage is unfamiliar with Fulvias!
I have a head gasket set.
As you can appreciate parts are expensive, so I am trying to save money!
ANSWERS
1) What other parts do I need?
If the inlet / outlet valves are ok,
2) Can I have them machined / re-seated
If the valve guides are ok:
3) Should I get new guides?
There is no leaded petrol here in the UK (I use E5)
4) Should I have the head converted to leaded fuel?
If the head is cracked,
5) Can it be re-stitched / welded?
6) Head torque pressure?
The head has never been off,
7) How much should the head be machined?
There is no timing chain noise / rattle.
8) Should i get a new timing chain?
9) Does the head cylinder need to be re-torqued after 1000 kms>
Any further advice would be most welcomed.
Thank you.
Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Interesting questions. Remember that Lancia's were expensive cars. Technically very advanced. Even more so than Ferrari to name just one other car manufacturer but you can name plenty of other. The difference is that Lancia applied the technology to build safe and reliable business and family cars which take you anywhere at any time. The performance does not come from cubic inches but from very precise engineering.
Saving money is not a good motivation when working on a Lancia. You end up having to do it all over again so the cost is will always be higher. Leading should be the book with the Technical Data (Data Tecnici) and the workshop manual. Just make sure everything is within the specifications. Everything in the book is there for good reason.
Also in my experience it may not be a good idea to do only the head. All the time I tried that (way in the past) I always had to do the bottom part of the engine within 3 months.
If we at Casa Lancia get a car from a customer with an engine problem, we check the car completely and may advice the customer to have a sill repair, brake, steering and suspension overhaul before rebuilding the engine. I never drive an engine but I do drive Lancia's.
It is often said that Lancia's are Italian cars. I am more precise. Lancia's are Piemontese cars. The Piemontese are a bit introvert. They do excellent technical jobs. They don't talk too much.
Saving money is not a good motivation when working on a Lancia. You end up having to do it all over again so the cost is will always be higher. Leading should be the book with the Technical Data (Data Tecnici) and the workshop manual. Just make sure everything is within the specifications. Everything in the book is there for good reason.
Also in my experience it may not be a good idea to do only the head. All the time I tried that (way in the past) I always had to do the bottom part of the engine within 3 months.
If we at Casa Lancia get a car from a customer with an engine problem, we check the car completely and may advice the customer to have a sill repair, brake, steering and suspension overhaul before rebuilding the engine. I never drive an engine but I do drive Lancia's.
It is often said that Lancia's are Italian cars. I am more precise. Lancia's are Piemontese cars. The Piemontese are a bit introvert. They do excellent technical jobs. They don't talk too much.
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Hi Huib,
Thanks for the Lancia history but really, what would be helpful is if you could take the time to answer 1-9 of my questions!!
The bottom of my engine is excellent. Never any oil / coolant issues, just the very odd top up.,
Thank you
Thanks for the Lancia history but really, what would be helpful is if you could take the time to answer 1-9 of my questions!!
The bottom of my engine is excellent. Never any oil / coolant issues, just the very odd top up.,
Thank you
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Problem solved!
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Good to hear that. Can you tell us?
I was wondering how white smoke could lead to a head overhaul.
I was wondering how white smoke could lead to a head overhaul.
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Hi Huib
Well I'm not a mechanic but 2 Automobile road side assistance guys said they thought it was either a blown head gasket or, valves. They both checked the oil which was over the normal. I thought "better too much than too little"
Then when I brought it to my very experienced, elderly mechanic, he said the "white smoke / spluttering" was the result of too much oil. The compression is now 130 psi on all cylinders. I was mystified as prior to this problem because i rarely had to top up the oil. Mileage is only 108.000 kms. Mechanic said the engine runs fine now.
And to think that all i had to do was drain / fill up with fresh oil & filter!
Well I'm not a mechanic but 2 Automobile road side assistance guys said they thought it was either a blown head gasket or, valves. They both checked the oil which was over the normal. I thought "better too much than too little"
Then when I brought it to my very experienced, elderly mechanic, he said the "white smoke / spluttering" was the result of too much oil. The compression is now 130 psi on all cylinders. I was mystified as prior to this problem because i rarely had to top up the oil. Mileage is only 108.000 kms. Mechanic said the engine runs fine now.
And to think that all i had to do was drain / fill up with fresh oil & filter!
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Good to hear that.
The guys of the road side assistance are good. Always a pleasure to talk to them. I always learn from them too.
So what you need is the User Manual.
See https://viva-lancia.com/specials/cd/fulvia-cd.php
User Manual is called "Coupe & Sport Instruction Book Incl 1600 variants in English". It is on Fulvia_S2_2.
My earlier remark that it is wise to stick to the book (in your case the User Manual) is still valid. There is a catch. The attitude of the car has to be within specifications. The dipstick is in the corner of the engine. If the car is nose down or tail down the indication on the dipstick is not correct.
Try to live on the same planet as the thousands of people who designed, built and documented the car for you.
The guys of the road side assistance are good. Always a pleasure to talk to them. I always learn from them too.
So what you need is the User Manual.
See https://viva-lancia.com/specials/cd/fulvia-cd.php
User Manual is called "Coupe & Sport Instruction Book Incl 1600 variants in English". It is on Fulvia_S2_2.
My earlier remark that it is wise to stick to the book (in your case the User Manual) is still valid. There is a catch. The attitude of the car has to be within specifications. The dipstick is in the corner of the engine. If the car is nose down or tail down the indication on the dipstick is not correct.
Try to live on the same planet as the thousands of people who designed, built and documented the car for you.
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Although this issue was resolved, I will allow myself to continue with some questions on the same topic. The starting point is a compression measurement.
Cyl 1: 97psi
Cyl 2: 85psi
Cyl 3: 93psi
Cyl 4: 121psi
The measurements were first made with a cold engine, and then with a warm engine. The compression was lower with a warm engine on cylinders 1-3, but the same on cylinder 4. Which indicates that the deviation is not due to wear in the cylinders or piston rings? Then the values would normally be better with a warm engine? The valve clearances were within tolerance levels, but not perfect. The TDC mark on the flywheel and the marks on the camshafts are in the correct position. I do not have high oil consumption, and there is no blue smoke in the exhaust. I do not have water in the oil, and the coolant is clear. The engine has done 68,000 km. (818.630) I was actually a bit surprised by the compression measurements, because the engine actually runs smoothly, and pulls well.
My conclusion is that the valves are no longer sealing against the valve seats, and that I have to dismantle the cylinder head. I have some pfd files with vital information about torque, drawings, etc. but no complete workshop manual. If there is one? For download, or USB stick.
1. There are 4 pcs of 10mm Allen bolts in the cylinder head. I can't find any description of what function these have.
2. The oil filler neck is attached with a threaded bolt, and a slightly special nut. Is there a reason why it's not a completely normal bolt?
3. I'm used to installing new cylinder head bolts, so I assume that's normal on this engine too. Is there any added value in buying reinforced bolts?
4. I was planning to first split the timing chain, loosen all the bolts, and then lift off the cylinder head, to continue the work on a workbench.
5. Depending on how the valves and seats look, I will have to make a decision on whether grinding is good enough, or whether I have to replace the valves and seats.
Is there something I have forgotten, or not thought of? I screwed up a lot on engines in my youth, but that was 50 years ago. I know how to adjust camshafts and valves etc. The 818.630 engine also has clear markings for the camshaft positions.
Cyl 1: 97psi
Cyl 2: 85psi
Cyl 3: 93psi
Cyl 4: 121psi
The measurements were first made with a cold engine, and then with a warm engine. The compression was lower with a warm engine on cylinders 1-3, but the same on cylinder 4. Which indicates that the deviation is not due to wear in the cylinders or piston rings? Then the values would normally be better with a warm engine? The valve clearances were within tolerance levels, but not perfect. The TDC mark on the flywheel and the marks on the camshafts are in the correct position. I do not have high oil consumption, and there is no blue smoke in the exhaust. I do not have water in the oil, and the coolant is clear. The engine has done 68,000 km. (818.630) I was actually a bit surprised by the compression measurements, because the engine actually runs smoothly, and pulls well.
My conclusion is that the valves are no longer sealing against the valve seats, and that I have to dismantle the cylinder head. I have some pfd files with vital information about torque, drawings, etc. but no complete workshop manual. If there is one? For download, or USB stick.
1. There are 4 pcs of 10mm Allen bolts in the cylinder head. I can't find any description of what function these have.
2. The oil filler neck is attached with a threaded bolt, and a slightly special nut. Is there a reason why it's not a completely normal bolt?
3. I'm used to installing new cylinder head bolts, so I assume that's normal on this engine too. Is there any added value in buying reinforced bolts?
4. I was planning to first split the timing chain, loosen all the bolts, and then lift off the cylinder head, to continue the work on a workbench.
5. Depending on how the valves and seats look, I will have to make a decision on whether grinding is good enough, or whether I have to replace the valves and seats.
Is there something I have forgotten, or not thought of? I screwed up a lot on engines in my youth, but that was 50 years ago. I know how to adjust camshafts and valves etc. The 818.630 engine also has clear markings for the camshaft positions.
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
The compression values certainly point to valves not properly closing. Did you put any additive into the fuel? Some lead replacement additives leave a powder on valves and seats. If you did, stop putting additives. Fill up with E5 and add valve cleaning stuff to the fuel.
The workshop manual for S2 is only in Italian. What I did (many years ago) is to use the S1 workshop manual. The important differences are in the Concise Workshop manual. Both are available here: https://viva-lancia.com/specials/cd/fulvia-cd.php
1. Do you mean the plugs for the coolant circuit? Best leave them in place unless they are leaking.
2. There are 2 studs which is good practice as it avoids having to tighten and loosen bolts into the aluminium of the head. Lancia uses helicoils or studs for aluminium. What is special on the nut?
3. The S2 has bolts marked Fiat on the head. These have to be tightened 2 - 2.3 mkg. If you are a bolt whisperer you can check for yourself if the bolts can be used again. Normally yes if nobody over torqued the bolts and the engine never overheated. There is 10 cm aluminium of which the coefficient of thermal expansion is about twice as high as for the steel of which the bolts are made. The bolts may have flowed. Carefully study the bolts. If you see any change in thickness it has flowed (melted). The flowing reduces the stress as it allows the bolt to become longer. So, you are looking for local thinner diameter. If any is thinner locally, buy new bolts.
Note that 2 of the bolts are thicker. The shaft is 8.5mm. They should be in positions 1 and 2. If not that is a tell tale that someone who did not know the Fulvia engine worked on it. Consider doing a complete overhaul.
There are 2 strategies for head bolts. USe a few strong ones and torque them wll or use many normal bolts. Because of the large aluminium head the most logical choice is many normal bolts. It is important that they have the thick steel washers under the head. Torque them progressively in small steps. Make sure you have a good quality torque wrench which clicks sharply. If it does not click sharply it means there is a bolt flowing. Go buy new bolts.
4. sounds ok.
5. Might be a good idea to install austenitic valves anyway. It it is hardly ever necessary to change the seats.
Double check the timing of the camshafts with the 2.2 mm method.
The workshop manual for S2 is only in Italian. What I did (many years ago) is to use the S1 workshop manual. The important differences are in the Concise Workshop manual. Both are available here: https://viva-lancia.com/specials/cd/fulvia-cd.php
1. Do you mean the plugs for the coolant circuit? Best leave them in place unless they are leaking.
2. There are 2 studs which is good practice as it avoids having to tighten and loosen bolts into the aluminium of the head. Lancia uses helicoils or studs for aluminium. What is special on the nut?
3. The S2 has bolts marked Fiat on the head. These have to be tightened 2 - 2.3 mkg. If you are a bolt whisperer you can check for yourself if the bolts can be used again. Normally yes if nobody over torqued the bolts and the engine never overheated. There is 10 cm aluminium of which the coefficient of thermal expansion is about twice as high as for the steel of which the bolts are made. The bolts may have flowed. Carefully study the bolts. If you see any change in thickness it has flowed (melted). The flowing reduces the stress as it allows the bolt to become longer. So, you are looking for local thinner diameter. If any is thinner locally, buy new bolts.
Note that 2 of the bolts are thicker. The shaft is 8.5mm. They should be in positions 1 and 2. If not that is a tell tale that someone who did not know the Fulvia engine worked on it. Consider doing a complete overhaul.
There are 2 strategies for head bolts. USe a few strong ones and torque them wll or use many normal bolts. Because of the large aluminium head the most logical choice is many normal bolts. It is important that they have the thick steel washers under the head. Torque them progressively in small steps. Make sure you have a good quality torque wrench which clicks sharply. If it does not click sharply it means there is a bolt flowing. Go buy new bolts.
4. sounds ok.
5. Might be a good idea to install austenitic valves anyway. It it is hardly ever necessary to change the seats.
Double check the timing of the camshafts with the 2.2 mm method.
Re: Advice: S2 head overhaul Fulvia coupe 1.3S
Hi Huib,
Many thanks again.
After I posted, the mechanic (another one) discovered that there was far too much oil. He drained the oil & put addedthe correct amount of oil
Result: No white smoke. So no need for an immediate head rebuild. Engine does not use / leak any oil.
Ok it's running rich (plugs foul up quickly. When starting up, the engine is rough - not on all cylinders. Once the engine is warm, it's on all 4 cylinders but still plugs are dirty when I remove them. I simply clean the plugs..
Storing the car on Tuesday until March / April when I will have the mechanic set the 4 small mixure screws. I believe it is trial & error and to turn each one shlowly and then repeat the process.
Correct?
To get the correct mixture on each screw:
Should the engine is cold / warm?
Thank you again
Many thanks again.
After I posted, the mechanic (another one) discovered that there was far too much oil. He drained the oil & put addedthe correct amount of oil
Result: No white smoke. So no need for an immediate head rebuild. Engine does not use / leak any oil.
Ok it's running rich (plugs foul up quickly. When starting up, the engine is rough - not on all cylinders. Once the engine is warm, it's on all 4 cylinders but still plugs are dirty when I remove them. I simply clean the plugs..
Storing the car on Tuesday until March / April when I will have the mechanic set the 4 small mixure screws. I believe it is trial & error and to turn each one shlowly and then repeat the process.
Correct?
To get the correct mixture on each screw:
Should the engine is cold / warm?
Thank you again