I know that I'm preaching to the converted, but I want to marvel (once again) about what a great job Lancia did on the Fulvia.
This weekend, we took our Coupe Rallye 1.3 on the Alpine 500, a touring event here in Northern California. A two day event with 630 miles of fast driving, mostly in the Sierra mountains and much of it at relatively high altitudes (4000 + feet above sea level).
Before the event started, I was a little concerned about how 1.3 liters would do at high altitude, particularly when called upon to keep up with larger engined Alfas, BMWs and the like, and to make quick, decisive passes around lumbering trucks and SUVs on two lane roads.
I need not have worried. Provided I kept the revs up, the car responded superbly every time I needed it to. I couldn't quite keep up with the 308GT or the RS Carrera, but I had great fun trying. And the car's reliability, small thirst for gasoline, and comfort over long distances meant we were able to maintain impressive average speeds over the routes both days.
The only thing I thinking about doing now is experimenting with stiffer anti-sway bars. I'm not after a super stiff track day car setup, but instead an incrementally stiffer front and rear bar that would maintain the current balance of the car while reducing the body roll a bit. Any suggestions or sources would be welcomed.
For those who may be interested in the Alpine 500, we've put our snaps of the event up at: www.fulviacam.phanfare.com
Regards
Fulvia on Alpine 500
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Huib
Re: Clickable link
Very nice indeed, Shaun.
As to the anti sway bars, my advice is to bring all suspension parts (springs, shocks, rubbers etc) within factory spec and then try again. Just new bars of the same diameter will most probably be all you need.
The car was originally very well balanced for fast country runs on Italian roads, which are a lot twistier than the Californian roads as I know them.
Your bars have probably worn a lot under the rubbers. Just a bit of wear already influences the characteristics quite a bit. Also rust does. The strength of a anti sway bar is proportional to the 3rd of 4th (I forgot which one exactly) power of the thickness. Just a bit of wear or corrosion already affects it a lot.
If you put the car on axle stands and jack up one front wheel, you will notice the rubbers are deformed quite a bit. This substracts also from the effectiveness. Just putting in thicker bars will put even more load on the rubbers and destroy them quicker.
Before you try any modifications it is necessary to bring the car within "as new" spec just to make sure you are not compensating for problems elsewhere. Compensating for problems elsewhere may result in a dangerous car and / or put strain on components that were not designed for it.
I bought a new Fulvia berlina in 1970. The first trip abroad (from the Netherlands) was to London as already mentioned a few days ago on this forum. The second one was to Spain and Portugal. I am no counting trips to Belgium and Paris, which we consider as being in the "backyard". Friends went with us half the trip. On the way back Annabelle and I drove one day from Madrid eastward on a deserted country road. Very straight road in a wide valley with in the center a canyon with a river. We could see for a million miles. Somewhere the road had a 90 degree bend to the left, a bridge over the canyon followed by a 90 degree turn to the right. I saw the bend from miles away so I continued full throttle till the last moment and applied full brakes. Alas, a million people before me had braked on the same spot so the tarmac had worn and there was lots of rubber. Well, the pieces of rock forming the railing of the bridge stopped us with the right front wheel hanging over the canyon. The farmer who came running to us told us there was at least one accident per week, most of them fatal. Front wheel driven cars like the Citroens usually went straight into the canyon. Rear wheel driven cars rolled over and also ended up in the canyon. We where able to continue our trip with a dented front wing. With a lesser car than a Fulvia we would most probably have ended at the bottom of the canyon. This accident always makes me think twice about making any modifications. You may test ten different situations but there is always an 11th one you have not tested.
Stiffer anti sway bars also affect handling on bad road surfaces.
As to the anti sway bars, my advice is to bring all suspension parts (springs, shocks, rubbers etc) within factory spec and then try again. Just new bars of the same diameter will most probably be all you need.
The car was originally very well balanced for fast country runs on Italian roads, which are a lot twistier than the Californian roads as I know them.
Your bars have probably worn a lot under the rubbers. Just a bit of wear already influences the characteristics quite a bit. Also rust does. The strength of a anti sway bar is proportional to the 3rd of 4th (I forgot which one exactly) power of the thickness. Just a bit of wear or corrosion already affects it a lot.
If you put the car on axle stands and jack up one front wheel, you will notice the rubbers are deformed quite a bit. This substracts also from the effectiveness. Just putting in thicker bars will put even more load on the rubbers and destroy them quicker.
Before you try any modifications it is necessary to bring the car within "as new" spec just to make sure you are not compensating for problems elsewhere. Compensating for problems elsewhere may result in a dangerous car and / or put strain on components that were not designed for it.
I bought a new Fulvia berlina in 1970. The first trip abroad (from the Netherlands) was to London as already mentioned a few days ago on this forum. The second one was to Spain and Portugal. I am no counting trips to Belgium and Paris, which we consider as being in the "backyard". Friends went with us half the trip. On the way back Annabelle and I drove one day from Madrid eastward on a deserted country road. Very straight road in a wide valley with in the center a canyon with a river. We could see for a million miles. Somewhere the road had a 90 degree bend to the left, a bridge over the canyon followed by a 90 degree turn to the right. I saw the bend from miles away so I continued full throttle till the last moment and applied full brakes. Alas, a million people before me had braked on the same spot so the tarmac had worn and there was lots of rubber. Well, the pieces of rock forming the railing of the bridge stopped us with the right front wheel hanging over the canyon. The farmer who came running to us told us there was at least one accident per week, most of them fatal. Front wheel driven cars like the Citroens usually went straight into the canyon. Rear wheel driven cars rolled over and also ended up in the canyon. We where able to continue our trip with a dented front wing. With a lesser car than a Fulvia we would most probably have ended at the bottom of the canyon. This accident always makes me think twice about making any modifications. You may test ten different situations but there is always an 11th one you have not tested.
Stiffer anti sway bars also affect handling on bad road surfaces.
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: Clickable link
Huib always writes good sense, he is of course entirely correct that new anti-roll bars may well be better and if one is running exactly the same tyres as originally fitted and the bars and rubbers are in A1 condition, then there is a good case to keep the car standard for normal road use.
For myself, I have found that fitting a 2000 sedan bar to the front (18mm instead of 16mm) greatly improves turn-in - and does not, despite the theory, increase understeer. For the rear it is necessary to have a bar made as all the originals were 14mm. I had one made from 5/8" (16mm approx) bar (EN16T). The stiffness is a function of the fourth power so this bar is about 60% stiffer than the original. It works very well - I no longer have that sinking feeling in the buttocks when cornering briskly - but I should add that I use modern tyres which are far superior in terms of grip - more grip equals more roll of course.
Paul
For myself, I have found that fitting a 2000 sedan bar to the front (18mm instead of 16mm) greatly improves turn-in - and does not, despite the theory, increase understeer. For the rear it is necessary to have a bar made as all the originals were 14mm. I had one made from 5/8" (16mm approx) bar (EN16T). The stiffness is a function of the fourth power so this bar is about 60% stiffer than the original. It works very well - I no longer have that sinking feeling in the buttocks when cornering briskly - but I should add that I use modern tyres which are far superior in terms of grip - more grip equals more roll of course.
Paul
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Shaun Pond
Re: Clickable link
Huib and Paul,
Many thanks for the information. You both make excellent points regarding the swaybar fittings.
I will first check the condition of the current scheme. As Huib points out, the swaybar rubbers may indeed be worn. I'm not sure how I'd be able to check the condition of the bars themselves.
I am running tires that are larger than the no-longer-available (at least, in the US) stock sizes and tend to the opinion, as Paul says, that the newer, grippier tires available today may permit a stiffer set of swaybars.
Any opinions on the value of replacing the rubber swaybar mountings with ones made of urethane or other modern material?
Another question: looking at period photos of the factory rally HFs suggests to me that at least some of them had stiffer bars. Does anyone know if this is true, and, if so, what size(s)?
And, Huib, very glad you were able to make that corner in Spain in your Berlina! Would hate to think about running a Fulvia without Viva-Lancia.
Regards
Many thanks for the information. You both make excellent points regarding the swaybar fittings.
I will first check the condition of the current scheme. As Huib points out, the swaybar rubbers may indeed be worn. I'm not sure how I'd be able to check the condition of the bars themselves.
I am running tires that are larger than the no-longer-available (at least, in the US) stock sizes and tend to the opinion, as Paul says, that the newer, grippier tires available today may permit a stiffer set of swaybars.
Any opinions on the value of replacing the rubber swaybar mountings with ones made of urethane or other modern material?
Another question: looking at period photos of the factory rally HFs suggests to me that at least some of them had stiffer bars. Does anyone know if this is true, and, if so, what size(s)?
And, Huib, very glad you were able to make that corner in Spain in your Berlina! Would hate to think about running a Fulvia without Viva-Lancia.
Regards
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Ed Levin
Re: Clickable link
Shaun
If you're running tires that are larger than the original spec 145-14 (for your S1 1.3), then you've effectively raised the roll center, which could help explain why you're getting a bit more body roll. No matter changes you make in roll bar settings, roll bar bushings, or grippy tires, you're fighting a basic change in your suspension geometry. Even if it's only a relatively subtle change in roll center, it's a change in the wrong direction.
Incidentally, 145-14s can still be found. Unfortunately, Michelin XAS are no longer available in 145-14 (some other sizes, including 165-14 for S2 coupes, have been re-released). But, if you don't mind having them shipped from the UK, and you don't mind off-brand, Longstone has some145-14s for GBP 30 apiece. Even with the lousy exchange rate and the international shipping, they're obtainable without completely breaking the bank. And it wouldn't surprise me if you could find some closer to home.
If you're running tires that are larger than the original spec 145-14 (for your S1 1.3), then you've effectively raised the roll center, which could help explain why you're getting a bit more body roll. No matter changes you make in roll bar settings, roll bar bushings, or grippy tires, you're fighting a basic change in your suspension geometry. Even if it's only a relatively subtle change in roll center, it's a change in the wrong direction.
Incidentally, 145-14s can still be found. Unfortunately, Michelin XAS are no longer available in 145-14 (some other sizes, including 165-14 for S2 coupes, have been re-released). But, if you don't mind having them shipped from the UK, and you don't mind off-brand, Longstone has some145-14s for GBP 30 apiece. Even with the lousy exchange rate and the international shipping, they're obtainable without completely breaking the bank. And it wouldn't surprise me if you could find some closer to home.
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: Clickable link
Shaun,
It is quite true that very often the rubbers are shot.
Happily I dound that the oversize bars were a nice snug fit in the old rubbers...
Not great engineering I admit, but it works well and so I kept a selection of old rubbers for future use!
Obviously polyurethane bushes would be a better solution and make for a sharper car.
Paul
It is quite true that very often the rubbers are shot.
Happily I dound that the oversize bars were a nice snug fit in the old rubbers...
Not great engineering I admit, but it works well and so I kept a selection of old rubbers for future use!
Obviously polyurethane bushes would be a better solution and make for a sharper car.
Paul
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Huib
Re: Clickable link
I checked Longstone. They sell Camac 145R14 tires. Never heard of them but it is definitely good news that there are more manufacturers than Bridgestone.
Some weeks ago I refurbished 10 steel wheels and ordered 12 of the Bridgestone B381 Ecopia 145/80R14 tires to find out that there were no tubes for 145R14 left in this country. Sort of logical. If (almost) everybody takes 145R14 out of production, the tubes will also become difficult.
My tire dealer did fortunately manage to find enough tubes somewhere in this world. Since a week I am now running Tina, my 1967 rallye 1.3, on the original wheels and tire size again. Untill then I ran my S1 coupes on 5,5J13 wheels with 165/80R13 tires.
I am quite happy with the standard tire size. After driving these coupes for a few hundred thousand kilometers I have found out that the original wheels with the original tire size give the best balanced package for relaxed long and short distance driving, reliability and fuel economy.
The Bridgestone's are built for good fuel economy. The penalty is less grip which is actually good as it puts less strain on various suspension components and the body itself.
Some weeks ago I refurbished 10 steel wheels and ordered 12 of the Bridgestone B381 Ecopia 145/80R14 tires to find out that there were no tubes for 145R14 left in this country. Sort of logical. If (almost) everybody takes 145R14 out of production, the tubes will also become difficult.
My tire dealer did fortunately manage to find enough tubes somewhere in this world. Since a week I am now running Tina, my 1967 rallye 1.3, on the original wheels and tire size again. Untill then I ran my S1 coupes on 5,5J13 wheels with 165/80R13 tires.
I am quite happy with the standard tire size. After driving these coupes for a few hundred thousand kilometers I have found out that the original wheels with the original tire size give the best balanced package for relaxed long and short distance driving, reliability and fuel economy.
The Bridgestone's are built for good fuel economy. The penalty is less grip which is actually good as it puts less strain on various suspension components and the body itself.
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Sam Danenberger IV
Re: Clickable link
Huib-
This discussion brings us all back again to needing Michelin to produce at least 200-400 or so 145x14 XAS radials and tubes again! Put me down for an even dozen by the way!
I can't agree enough, the car works best (overall) on the orignal size wheels and tires because it was engineered from the ground up that way.
The Fulvista of the world must unite and get some original specification tires produced for our cars!!!!
Are you with me???
Surely this tire must also fit other models from the '60's which also would need new ones someday!!!
This discussion brings us all back again to needing Michelin to produce at least 200-400 or so 145x14 XAS radials and tubes again! Put me down for an even dozen by the way!
I can't agree enough, the car works best (overall) on the orignal size wheels and tires because it was engineered from the ground up that way.
The Fulvista of the world must unite and get some original specification tires produced for our cars!!!!
Are you with me???
Surely this tire must also fit other models from the '60's which also would need new ones someday!!!
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Huib
Re: Clickable link
The Michelin people say they no longer have the moulds.
I think they are lying.
I think they are lying.