My 1600 HF has been making an awful rattling sound since I got it. I had the chain replaced (It is the correct one) by a mechanic recently as I didn't have the time to do it myself.
As part of the car's christmas present I set about setting the tappets as I thought that may be the problem. It wasn't, so I removed the water pump to have a look at the tensioner and hey presto the problem revealed itself. The shoe was worn through into the metal. (see pics)
Question 1. Does anyone know what material the covering is made of and whether it is possible to have this rebonded
Question 2. As I now have the motor virtually in pieces (and dropped the chain into the sump), I thought I would check the big end bearings whilst I was at the job. Does the 1600 HF use different bearings to the 1300 and if so what is the spec?
Regards
A dirty Phil
PS, the good news is that with the radiator and the waterpump off, I can give the engine a really good clean.
1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
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lanciagarage
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 21 Dec 2008, 20:37
1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
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gamma a.i.
- Posts: 888
- Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 14:18
Re: 1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
I sincerely hope you are enjoying your holidays 
-D signed: Fulvia a.i.
-D signed: Fulvia a.i.Re: 1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
I can't answer question 1 but question 2....
yes they are different - the big ends are a greater diameter on1600's (52mm vs 50mm). The bearings can also be very difficult to get hold of . There are no undersizes as the cranks are nitrided.
All the best for 2009
Neil
yes they are different - the big ends are a greater diameter on1600's (52mm vs 50mm). The bearings can also be very difficult to get hold of . There are no undersizes as the cranks are nitrided.
All the best for 2009
Neil
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lancialulu
- Posts: 244
- Joined: 21 Dec 2008, 19:53
Re: 1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
I believe undersizes are available?
Tim
Tim
Re: 1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
Where from ? It is not easy to find anyone who can grind and then if neccessary re-harden a nitrided crank without problems. I have had quite a few discussions with Omicron, and a couple of specialists who advised that it was, whilst a potential, not advisable if it could be avoided.
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lanciagarage
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 21 Dec 2008, 20:37
Re: 1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
Hi Neil,
So what do you suggest I do, bearing in mind that I haven't ever done this on my own before?
1. I have some new sets of bearings (with no markings on the packaging). Is there a way to check the measurement before I remove the beraings from the crank?
2. I don't have any bearing knock, but do have some blue smoke at high revs and like most fulvia's my oil pressure gauge only shows 35 at 3000rppm and virtually no pressure at idling.
3. If the crank has no visible evidence of wear, can I simply replace the existing bearings or should I ( If I have the correct new ones) replace them?
Regards
Phil
So what do you suggest I do, bearing in mind that I haven't ever done this on my own before?
1. I have some new sets of bearings (with no markings on the packaging). Is there a way to check the measurement before I remove the beraings from the crank?
2. I don't have any bearing knock, but do have some blue smoke at high revs and like most fulvia's my oil pressure gauge only shows 35 at 3000rppm and virtually no pressure at idling.
3. If the crank has no visible evidence of wear, can I simply replace the existing bearings or should I ( If I have the correct new ones) replace them?
Regards
Phil
Re: 1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
You should in any case clean the crankshaft inside.
On the bearing shells there should be a marking. Either nothing or std means standard, then there is either 010 or 020 or 030. Undersizes are alwasy in thousands of an inch.
For the big ends I expect only std. For the main there the various undersizes as they are the same bearings as for the other Fulvia engines.
You can feel the crankshaft with your nail and look at the bearing shells, then decide what to do.
Low oil pressure reading could be wrong instrument or low oil pressure or a combination. The sender should be a 6 bar type. 0 Ohm at 6 bar. 300 Ohm at 0 bar. This is engraved on the bottom of the sender. Connect it to an air compressor through a pressure regulator. Change the pressure with an Ohm meter connected. See if the thing is ok.
The oil pumps are invariably bad. The clearances are usually twice those allowed.
On the bearing shells there should be a marking. Either nothing or std means standard, then there is either 010 or 020 or 030. Undersizes are alwasy in thousands of an inch.
For the big ends I expect only std. For the main there the various undersizes as they are the same bearings as for the other Fulvia engines.
You can feel the crankshaft with your nail and look at the bearing shells, then decide what to do.
Low oil pressure reading could be wrong instrument or low oil pressure or a combination. The sender should be a 6 bar type. 0 Ohm at 6 bar. 300 Ohm at 0 bar. This is engraved on the bottom of the sender. Connect it to an air compressor through a pressure regulator. Change the pressure with an Ohm meter connected. See if the thing is ok.
The oil pumps are invariably bad. The clearances are usually twice those allowed.
Re: 1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
Hi Phil,
I would be surprised if there was any damage to the crank (this is why it is nitrided). If you have the sump off then removing the big end half shells is easy as is checking the crank using Huibs method. If they are in good condition then I would leave them in - you could check the clearences with Plastigauge. You could do the same with your new set if you are unsure, if they are the incorrect size they will not fit the connecing rod and the measured clearences will be incorrect, 0.029 - 0.058mm (limit 0.070) for a 1600 (all this info is in the data book which Huib can supply). Big ends are rarely a problem on a well looked after engine, the centre main is the weakest link in my experience. I have never had one go but it has always been the most worn on any engine I have taken to bits
I don't think this has anything to do with the blue smoke though - that sounds like a top end oil leak (valve guides ?).
If you are fully stripping the engine then cleaning inside the crank is a must. This is my crank, with my muck
Also you should remove the end plugs and clean inside the oil pump drive shaft and both rocker shafts. But that is an engine in pieces job.
As Huib says, the oil pumps are pretty much always outside tolerance. Mine has a tip clearence of 0.14mm although the end clearence is OK. Not sure if that makes a significant difference, but it certainly doesn't make it better.
Just to be clear there are no undersize bearing sizes available for 1.3 HF or 1.6 HF series cars as they all had nitrided cranks (nor are any show in the data book). If you can find a specialist who can grind and then re-harden the mains without wrecking them you can do as Huib suggests, but it all hangs on finding a specialist who can do it (it is not cheap !). I imagine a bit of catelogue research will find undersized bearings that may be able to used for the big ends with a bit of re-work, but again not cheap. But the point of nitriding is to prevent wear, assuming the oil has been kept clean and there is no scoring, undersize bearings should not be required. Has anyone found othewise ?
Regards
Neil
I would be surprised if there was any damage to the crank (this is why it is nitrided). If you have the sump off then removing the big end half shells is easy as is checking the crank using Huibs method. If they are in good condition then I would leave them in - you could check the clearences with Plastigauge. You could do the same with your new set if you are unsure, if they are the incorrect size they will not fit the connecing rod and the measured clearences will be incorrect, 0.029 - 0.058mm (limit 0.070) for a 1600 (all this info is in the data book which Huib can supply). Big ends are rarely a problem on a well looked after engine, the centre main is the weakest link in my experience. I have never had one go but it has always been the most worn on any engine I have taken to bits
I don't think this has anything to do with the blue smoke though - that sounds like a top end oil leak (valve guides ?).
If you are fully stripping the engine then cleaning inside the crank is a must. This is my crank, with my muck
Also you should remove the end plugs and clean inside the oil pump drive shaft and both rocker shafts. But that is an engine in pieces job.
As Huib says, the oil pumps are pretty much always outside tolerance. Mine has a tip clearence of 0.14mm although the end clearence is OK. Not sure if that makes a significant difference, but it certainly doesn't make it better.
Just to be clear there are no undersize bearing sizes available for 1.3 HF or 1.6 HF series cars as they all had nitrided cranks (nor are any show in the data book). If you can find a specialist who can grind and then re-harden the mains without wrecking them you can do as Huib suggests, but it all hangs on finding a specialist who can do it (it is not cheap !). I imagine a bit of catelogue research will find undersized bearings that may be able to used for the big ends with a bit of re-work, but again not cheap. But the point of nitriding is to prevent wear, assuming the oil has been kept clean and there is no scoring, undersize bearings should not be required. Has anyone found othewise ?
Regards
Neil
Opps: picture size ??
Picture sizing has gone a bit skew -wiff, how do I put that right :S
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lanciagarage
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 21 Dec 2008, 20:37
Re: 1600 HF Timing Chain Tensioner
Thanks so much Guys!:)
Hopefully ther is no damage to the crank.
As far as the oil pump is concerened, I have read your (Huib's) notes on this and looked lovingly at the newly built ones on offer. Unfortunately when I convert SA Rands to Euro's, the cost of buying one of those pumps equates to what I could pick up a running Fulvia S2 for, or thereabouts.
I will however have a look at valve guides.
Thanks again, I'll report back soon, watch this space for updates http://www.lancia.za.org/the_laing_garage.htm
Cheers
Hopefully ther is no damage to the crank.
As far as the oil pump is concerened, I have read your (Huib's) notes on this and looked lovingly at the newly built ones on offer. Unfortunately when I convert SA Rands to Euro's, the cost of buying one of those pumps equates to what I could pick up a running Fulvia S2 for, or thereabouts.
I will however have a look at valve guides.
Thanks again, I'll report back soon, watch this space for updates http://www.lancia.za.org/the_laing_garage.htm
Cheers