The thread on these heaters reminded me of an experience concerning the S1.
When I was at Evolution Engineering, we had a customer who complained bitterly about his heater in his S1.
We undertook to sort it out. Our first-class chap, Phil, mixed up his poisonous smelly secret gloop*, we disconnected the heater lines and left the whole thing overnight soaking in said smelly stuff. Next we back flushed it and a large torrent of the most filthy gunge came out for several minutes.
After this, the customer reported that he had had to turn the heater off as the car was too hot! I have never heard anyone saying such a thiing about S1 heaters before or since.
Paul
*The gloop consisted, I think, mostly of drain cleaner bought from a builder's merchant.
S1 Heaters
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shaun pond
Re: S1 Heaters
Paul, thanks.
When I first got my S1, I couldn't get any heat at all out of it. Airflow from the blower was laughable, and the heater air output was indistinguishable to the ambient air temperature.
I live in the Bay Area (northern California), so this wasn't life threatening or anything. But wet days and trips into the Sierra were less fun than they should have been.
Two things helped my car a great deal:
1. Fixing some wiring harness faults, which woke up the fan motor by providing it with something closer to its proper voltage, and
2. Adjusting the cable operated heater water valve (under the bonnet). As found, the valve wasn't opening completely when the knob was turned to its maximum position.
These fixes mean that I can actually de-mist the windshield fairly quickly on cold damp mornings, which is what I need most here.
But I'll try Paul's poisonous gloop tip this winter to see if that helps speed matters up even more.
Additionally, and In the spirit of Can't-Leave-Well-Enough-Alone:
3. Is there a good two speed fan that will easily fit an S1? Or has anyone experimented with installing a variable speed control for the heater blower motor? The noise from the stock single speed unit currently competes with the sound of the motor, which to me is one of the joys of driving a Fulvia on a winter morning (or any other time, for that matter). Having another option to "Noisy" or "Off" would be good.
Regards -
Shaun Pond
1967 Coupe Rallye 1.3
When I first got my S1, I couldn't get any heat at all out of it. Airflow from the blower was laughable, and the heater air output was indistinguishable to the ambient air temperature.
I live in the Bay Area (northern California), so this wasn't life threatening or anything. But wet days and trips into the Sierra were less fun than they should have been.
Two things helped my car a great deal:
1. Fixing some wiring harness faults, which woke up the fan motor by providing it with something closer to its proper voltage, and
2. Adjusting the cable operated heater water valve (under the bonnet). As found, the valve wasn't opening completely when the knob was turned to its maximum position.
These fixes mean that I can actually de-mist the windshield fairly quickly on cold damp mornings, which is what I need most here.
But I'll try Paul's poisonous gloop tip this winter to see if that helps speed matters up even more.
Additionally, and In the spirit of Can't-Leave-Well-Enough-Alone:
3. Is there a good two speed fan that will easily fit an S1? Or has anyone experimented with installing a variable speed control for the heater blower motor? The noise from the stock single speed unit currently competes with the sound of the motor, which to me is one of the joys of driving a Fulvia on a winter morning (or any other time, for that matter). Having another option to "Noisy" or "Off" would be good.
Regards -
Shaun Pond
1967 Coupe Rallye 1.3
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justin
Re: S1 Heaters
Hi Shaun
I had my S1 heater out of the car and apart in a matter of days ! I had to completely strip the dash to do it ! (I was upgrading everything to S2 anyway, so I didn't mind too much; however, the S2 heater doesn't fit.)
It is incredibly rudimentary, if I remember correctly, and almost certainly won't swap out for a more modern unit. There are unfriendly ducts, mouldings and controls unique to this model.
If anyone can correct me here, please do. The fan hasn't worked for ages and cold, damp mornings are what we get, here.
Jus
I had my S1 heater out of the car and apart in a matter of days ! I had to completely strip the dash to do it ! (I was upgrading everything to S2 anyway, so I didn't mind too much; however, the S2 heater doesn't fit.)
It is incredibly rudimentary, if I remember correctly, and almost certainly won't swap out for a more modern unit. There are unfriendly ducts, mouldings and controls unique to this model.
If anyone can correct me here, please do. The fan hasn't worked for ages and cold, damp mornings are what we get, here.
Jus
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: S1 Heaters
Justin (see below) did fit an S2 fan to his S1 heater; I cannot remember what was involved, but like most heater jobs it was pretty horrible as I recall, and then, as he says, it packed up!
Paul
Paul
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Huib
Re: S1 Heaters
The 1200 coupe has a rather inefficient fan. It should be replaced by an impeller which is exactly what the factory did on the 1.3 and 1.3S coupe's. Because the small openings (into the heater as well as from heater into the car) an impeller is more efficient than a fan because impellers are better in handling pressure.
The heaters of the 1.3 and 1.3S are not too bad if restored to original condition.
You already worked some on the wiring, which does indeed help a great deal. The thick black and red wires from dynamo to voltage regulator need to be replaced too. It is vital you use a good crimp tool to crimp the contacts onto the wire. Also the thick red wire from voltage regulator to fuse box needs to be replaced. If you use the head lights a lot you may consider to put in a second thick red wire just to feed the lights so the heavy current for the lights does not add to the voltage drop. As you have noted making sure the fan gets the highest possible voltage makes a world of difference. Of course check the voltage of the regulator too.
In one case I put a wire directly from voltage regulator to fan and switched it with a relay. A different heater!
The motor is in a bad position. It is directly behind the heater rad. If there is one thing that electro motors don't like it is a high temperature. Suprisingly enough most still work though.
The cause of the noise is probably axial play on the spindle of the motor. The impeller is in a rather small space. If there is too much axial play on the spindle, the magnetic field of the motor causes the impeller to hit the plastic cover.
You can easily take apart the motor and shim it for minimal axial play (it should have some).
When reassembling test the motor and fan mounted on the steel panel and with the plastic cover in place by connecting it to a battery. Make sure there is enough clearance on both sides.
I have thought about putting in a variable or multi speed impeller operated by a potentiometer behind the blue knob and put the air inlet flap in a permanently open position. However, in the sixties the filosophy was to use the heater only for heating up the car and use the windows for ventilation. Trying to improve air flow through the heater to also use it for ventilation would be fighting the system. The standard impeller if restored to its original efficiency gives enough airflow for heating. So I decided to keep it simple thus standard.
The motor driving the impeller is a 12V dc motor. I estimate it at 24 watts. The length of the housing is about 68mm and the diameter about 52mm. Diameter of the spindle is 6,3mm. I have been looking around for DC motors which are within those dimensions but haven't found any at a reasonable price. If anybody knows any, let me know.
www.comairrotron.com makes impellers. I worry a bit about the max operating temperature of 70 or 75 dgr C they specify. That type of impeller has the motor inside so it is further away from the heater rad. It might work. I haven't been able to get hold of one so I haven't tried them.
They are in San Diego.
Some time ago I also added some about the S1 heater to the Q&A on
www.viva-lancia.com/fulvia/qanda/interior/s1heater.php. Most is still valid.
The heaters of the 1.3 and 1.3S are not too bad if restored to original condition.
You already worked some on the wiring, which does indeed help a great deal. The thick black and red wires from dynamo to voltage regulator need to be replaced too. It is vital you use a good crimp tool to crimp the contacts onto the wire. Also the thick red wire from voltage regulator to fuse box needs to be replaced. If you use the head lights a lot you may consider to put in a second thick red wire just to feed the lights so the heavy current for the lights does not add to the voltage drop. As you have noted making sure the fan gets the highest possible voltage makes a world of difference. Of course check the voltage of the regulator too.
In one case I put a wire directly from voltage regulator to fan and switched it with a relay. A different heater!
The motor is in a bad position. It is directly behind the heater rad. If there is one thing that electro motors don't like it is a high temperature. Suprisingly enough most still work though.
The cause of the noise is probably axial play on the spindle of the motor. The impeller is in a rather small space. If there is too much axial play on the spindle, the magnetic field of the motor causes the impeller to hit the plastic cover.
You can easily take apart the motor and shim it for minimal axial play (it should have some).
When reassembling test the motor and fan mounted on the steel panel and with the plastic cover in place by connecting it to a battery. Make sure there is enough clearance on both sides.
I have thought about putting in a variable or multi speed impeller operated by a potentiometer behind the blue knob and put the air inlet flap in a permanently open position. However, in the sixties the filosophy was to use the heater only for heating up the car and use the windows for ventilation. Trying to improve air flow through the heater to also use it for ventilation would be fighting the system. The standard impeller if restored to its original efficiency gives enough airflow for heating. So I decided to keep it simple thus standard.
The motor driving the impeller is a 12V dc motor. I estimate it at 24 watts. The length of the housing is about 68mm and the diameter about 52mm. Diameter of the spindle is 6,3mm. I have been looking around for DC motors which are within those dimensions but haven't found any at a reasonable price. If anybody knows any, let me know.
www.comairrotron.com makes impellers. I worry a bit about the max operating temperature of 70 or 75 dgr C they specify. That type of impeller has the motor inside so it is further away from the heater rad. It might work. I haven't been able to get hold of one so I haven't tried them.
They are in San Diego.
Some time ago I also added some about the S1 heater to the Q&A on
www.viva-lancia.com/fulvia/qanda/interior/s1heater.php. Most is still valid.
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shaun pond
Re: S1 Heaters
Paul, Justin and Huib:
As always, this forum is a wealth of Fulvia information. Thank you!
Paul and Justin have convinced me that trying to retrofit more modern components into the heating system will probably not warrant the effort, at least not while I'll living where I am. I'll probably direct my 'can't leave well enough alone' impulses elsewhere (as in trying to correct the fit of the driver's side window) on the car instead.
Huib, thanks for the very comprehensive response. I'd found your recommendations regarding the electrical wiring on this list previously, and have applied them, as well as replaced the regulator with one intended for a VW Transporter. Collectively this transformed several of the car's systems (wipers, lights, etc. as well as the heating system) from quaint to effective.
And I subscribe to the 60s philosophy you referred to of using the windows to let fresh air in (or not). I really only need a way of occasionally lowering the blower's rpm (and hopefully the noise) when underway. I may experiment with a potentiometer control to accomplish this. Should I have to delve deeply into the dashboard region in the future, I'll take the opportunity to check and correct the impeller condition and clearances as you outlined.
It's really a bit odd writing about Fulvia heating systems at the moment -- we're experiencing a heat wave (highs this last weekend exceeded 100 degrees F) here in Northern California.
Thanks again!
Shaun Pond
67 Coupe Rallye 1.3
As always, this forum is a wealth of Fulvia information. Thank you!
Paul and Justin have convinced me that trying to retrofit more modern components into the heating system will probably not warrant the effort, at least not while I'll living where I am. I'll probably direct my 'can't leave well enough alone' impulses elsewhere (as in trying to correct the fit of the driver's side window) on the car instead.
Huib, thanks for the very comprehensive response. I'd found your recommendations regarding the electrical wiring on this list previously, and have applied them, as well as replaced the regulator with one intended for a VW Transporter. Collectively this transformed several of the car's systems (wipers, lights, etc. as well as the heating system) from quaint to effective.
And I subscribe to the 60s philosophy you referred to of using the windows to let fresh air in (or not). I really only need a way of occasionally lowering the blower's rpm (and hopefully the noise) when underway. I may experiment with a potentiometer control to accomplish this. Should I have to delve deeply into the dashboard region in the future, I'll take the opportunity to check and correct the impeller condition and clearances as you outlined.
It's really a bit odd writing about Fulvia heating systems at the moment -- we're experiencing a heat wave (highs this last weekend exceeded 100 degrees F) here in Northern California.
Thanks again!
Shaun Pond
67 Coupe Rallye 1.3
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Tony Kovacevic
Re: S1 Heaters
Further to what has allready been written, I've found that another common cause of non operating heater systems, is the rubber washer in the heater valve. It tends to swell with age and won't allow warm water to flow through to the heater core. I've used the heater valve washer from a 105 Alfa as a replacement.
Also, in cases where Draino, etc. won't work, I've had a new heater core made up. Expensive, but once this was done for the heater in my 2c, it produced plenty of heat.
Also, in cases where Draino, etc. won't work, I've had a new heater core made up. Expensive, but once this was done for the heater in my 2c, it produced plenty of heat.
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Huib
Re: S1 Heaters
If you keep the original motor you need a high current variable wire wound resistor to reduce the impeller rpm. It draws about 1,6 Amp.
When I mentioned the potentiometer I had an impeller with brushless DC motor in mind. Those usually have a high impedance voltage control input which allows the use of a simple potentiometer of reasonably high resistance. Let's say 10k ohms.
When I mentioned the potentiometer I had an impeller with brushless DC motor in mind. Those usually have a high impedance voltage control input which allows the use of a simple potentiometer of reasonably high resistance. Let's say 10k ohms.
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neil
Re: S1 Heaters
I tested my heater a few weeks ago after I had restored it and the fan speed when connected directly to a car battery (fully charged) was 1990 rpm. May be give you a bit of a guide. I also sealed everything I could with silicon to prevent air leaks. Subjectively this showed a before and after improvement from the bottom vent - but I dont have a manometer so it isn't measured.
i also looked for alternative motors but had no luck.
i also looked for alternative motors but had no luck.
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Huib
Re: S1 Heaters
Was this a 1200 or 1300 heater?
Just talking about an S1 heater is not acurate enough. The 1300 coupe heater looks very similar to the 1200 coupe heater on the outside but internally they are quite different.
Just talking about an S1 heater is not acurate enough. The 1300 coupe heater looks very similar to the 1200 coupe heater on the outside but internally they are quite different.