Can anyone suggest a better alternative for suspension and steering ball-joints to FRAP? The roads are not very smooth in Malta and before I had dismantled my S1 Coupe I had only done 3000 miles with a set of new parts from this make and now I have to change them again.
Best regards,
Manuel.
Suspension and steering ball-joints
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Huib Geurink
Re: Suspension and steering ball-joints
Sounds familiar, Manuel. I had similar problems some years ago. They have disappeared now. I think the following factors played a role.
Some years ago there was a bad batch of FRAP parts on the market, either as a result of bad production quality or too long on the shelf or both. Current FRAP production, at least up to a few months ago, was OK.
I pay a hell of lot more care when mounting new suspension or steering joints.
I take the wishbones off and with special tools I replace the suspension ball joints using an hydraulic press.
Then I grease them, with the wishbone still on the bench, and move the ball around till grease is everywhere on the ball.
I use high quality, sticky, waterresistant grease.
I do not use the FRAP rubbers, but buy rubbers without the tiny hole and with grease chambers in the collar that goes around the cone. Put grease into those chambers and put an elastic band around the collar.
I do not use the supplied O rings but buy thinner ones of the correct diameter. It is important to make sure the suspension ball joints are watertight after mounting.
Aftr pressing the collar of the dust cap all the way down the cone, equalize pressure by inserting a small blunt screwdriver under the collar.
When putting everything back onto the car, make sure the suspension ball joints are not overstretched. If the shock absorber is not mounted before the front spring is released, the upright will swing down too much and the joints will be damaged.
When regreasing the suspension ball joints after mounting, take the weight of the car off from the upper one (otherwise the ball will block the grease hole) and do not apply too much grease (one squeeze is enough). Equalize pressure again.
Note that the upper ball joint always has some play. Even new ones. The bottom ones do not have play because there is a small spring inside. Putting such a tiny spring into the upper one would be futile as the weight of the car is resting on the upper one. If the play on the upper one is up to a few mm, it is ok. The weight of the car eliminates any play. If the play approaches 1 cm, they are bad. The car will move over the ball unpredictably on hard cornering and hard braking. The geometry change may be different on each side, which may lead to dangerous situations under hard braking or cornering. I don't expect the car to fall off the upper suspension joint though.
When mounting the steering ball joints and when adjusting the toe out, one has to make absolutely sure that the housings of the joints are aligned with the mounting planes of the cones.The maximum sideways angle of swing is very small. If the steering joints are not 100% aligned (with their mounting planes, NOT with each other) they will fight each other and ruin themselves. Absolutely vital this is done correctly. I will always supervise any toe out adjusments.
I suppose it also helps that I have put new springs, new shockaborbers and new wishbone bushes on all my cars as well as new rubbers between front spring and upper wishbone.
Some years ago there was a bad batch of FRAP parts on the market, either as a result of bad production quality or too long on the shelf or both. Current FRAP production, at least up to a few months ago, was OK.
I pay a hell of lot more care when mounting new suspension or steering joints.
I take the wishbones off and with special tools I replace the suspension ball joints using an hydraulic press.
Then I grease them, with the wishbone still on the bench, and move the ball around till grease is everywhere on the ball.
I use high quality, sticky, waterresistant grease.
I do not use the FRAP rubbers, but buy rubbers without the tiny hole and with grease chambers in the collar that goes around the cone. Put grease into those chambers and put an elastic band around the collar.
I do not use the supplied O rings but buy thinner ones of the correct diameter. It is important to make sure the suspension ball joints are watertight after mounting.
Aftr pressing the collar of the dust cap all the way down the cone, equalize pressure by inserting a small blunt screwdriver under the collar.
When putting everything back onto the car, make sure the suspension ball joints are not overstretched. If the shock absorber is not mounted before the front spring is released, the upright will swing down too much and the joints will be damaged.
When regreasing the suspension ball joints after mounting, take the weight of the car off from the upper one (otherwise the ball will block the grease hole) and do not apply too much grease (one squeeze is enough). Equalize pressure again.
Note that the upper ball joint always has some play. Even new ones. The bottom ones do not have play because there is a small spring inside. Putting such a tiny spring into the upper one would be futile as the weight of the car is resting on the upper one. If the play on the upper one is up to a few mm, it is ok. The weight of the car eliminates any play. If the play approaches 1 cm, they are bad. The car will move over the ball unpredictably on hard cornering and hard braking. The geometry change may be different on each side, which may lead to dangerous situations under hard braking or cornering. I don't expect the car to fall off the upper suspension joint though.
When mounting the steering ball joints and when adjusting the toe out, one has to make absolutely sure that the housings of the joints are aligned with the mounting planes of the cones.The maximum sideways angle of swing is very small. If the steering joints are not 100% aligned (with their mounting planes, NOT with each other) they will fight each other and ruin themselves. Absolutely vital this is done correctly. I will always supervise any toe out adjusments.
I suppose it also helps that I have put new springs, new shockaborbers and new wishbone bushes on all my cars as well as new rubbers between front spring and upper wishbone.
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Manuel
Re: Suspension and steering ball-joints
Hi Huib,
Do you have a reliable contact where I can purchase the new FRAPS? I also read on a previous argument that you use POM for front suspension bushes. Is this material hard to find? My engineer has not heard of it yet. As for the front spring I am planning to manufacture a new one; any useful tips before proceeding?
I would also like to congratulate you and all the Fulvia experts on the forum. You guys make things easier for everybody!
Manuel.
Do you have a reliable contact where I can purchase the new FRAPS? I also read on a previous argument that you use POM for front suspension bushes. Is this material hard to find? My engineer has not heard of it yet. As for the front spring I am planning to manufacture a new one; any useful tips before proceeding?
I would also like to congratulate you and all the Fulvia experts on the forum. You guys make things easier for everybody!
Manuel.
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Huib Geurink
Re: Suspension and steering ball-joints
I expect any of the sponsors of this forum (see banners at the top or the bottom) to be able to supply new FRAPs.
For the bushes I use POM or PET. Both are modern and very stable plastics. You would have to go to a precision machine shop to have bushes made. They will know where to source it.
Most plastics have self lubricating properties. It is seductive to rely on those. Don't. Machine grease grooves and use good quality grease such as Millers Deltaplex, which is red.
You have the option of using the original steel inner bushes. I don't. Since the rubber sleeve is eliminated there is more space available. It allows to go to a 25mm diameter for the inner bush which I do. It reduces pressure for a given force. Also make sure that the clearance between inner bush and outer bush is as small as possible to avoid point loading of the plastic. I use a clearance 0,05mm.
The steel inner bush and flange have to be hardened to at least 50 rc and precision ground.
Around the long M18 bolt of the upper wishbone there is a spacer bush in the center. Its length has to be very precisely adjusted to arrive at near zero friction and near zero axial play when he M18 nut is torqued. This is a weak point in the original design of the suspension. I have not yet figured a convenient way to make it adjustable.
I have a set of drawings of the steel inner bushes and plastic outer bushes. However, it has costed me quite a bit to arrive at the correct design and dimensions which result in an exact fit after pressing the plastic bushes in the lower wishbone and alu towers. I won't give those for free. You are free to make me an offer.
For the bushes I use POM or PET. Both are modern and very stable plastics. You would have to go to a precision machine shop to have bushes made. They will know where to source it.
Most plastics have self lubricating properties. It is seductive to rely on those. Don't. Machine grease grooves and use good quality grease such as Millers Deltaplex, which is red.
You have the option of using the original steel inner bushes. I don't. Since the rubber sleeve is eliminated there is more space available. It allows to go to a 25mm diameter for the inner bush which I do. It reduces pressure for a given force. Also make sure that the clearance between inner bush and outer bush is as small as possible to avoid point loading of the plastic. I use a clearance 0,05mm.
The steel inner bush and flange have to be hardened to at least 50 rc and precision ground.
Around the long M18 bolt of the upper wishbone there is a spacer bush in the center. Its length has to be very precisely adjusted to arrive at near zero friction and near zero axial play when he M18 nut is torqued. This is a weak point in the original design of the suspension. I have not yet figured a convenient way to make it adjustable.
I have a set of drawings of the steel inner bushes and plastic outer bushes. However, it has costed me quite a bit to arrive at the correct design and dimensions which result in an exact fit after pressing the plastic bushes in the lower wishbone and alu towers. I won't give those for free. You are free to make me an offer.
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Manuel
Re: Suspension and steering ball-joints
The first thing I will do is look for the raw material and then discuss it with my engineer. In the meantime I found out that Esmat manufactures upper and lower wishbones for the S1, have you or anyone else on the forum ever tried these parts?
Best regards,
Manuel.
Best regards,
Manuel.
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Thibaut
Re: Suspension and steering ball-joints
Hi dear lancisti,
a particular attention to Huib :
as i am plannning to renew my front suspension plant, i am looking for 1st serie suspension silent blocs and bushes, for the upper and lower wishbones.
i was wondering if you had planned to reproduce some batches of sets of bushes for front axle, with your special POM material, and enhenced drawings ?
If you had something like that, i would be higlhy interested (as a lot more lancia enthusiast here i am sure !)
Thanks for your attention and help,
Your truly,
Thibaut
a particular attention to Huib :
as i am plannning to renew my front suspension plant, i am looking for 1st serie suspension silent blocs and bushes, for the upper and lower wishbones.
i was wondering if you had planned to reproduce some batches of sets of bushes for front axle, with your special POM material, and enhenced drawings ?
If you had something like that, i would be higlhy interested (as a lot more lancia enthusiast here i am sure !)
Thanks for your attention and help,
Your truly,
Thibaut
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Huib
Re: Suspension and steering ball-joints
Thibaut,
The S1 had bushes. The S2 and 3 had silent blocs.
I can make the bushes for top and bottom. They are made with very high precision and hardness and use expensive plastic. It won't be cheap. To install the upper ones you may have to drop the subframe. I am not sure it is possible to do on the car.
Note that the tolerances and clearances are even less than for the crankshaft and its bearings. It requires patience and a highly precise way of working to install them correctly.
I can only say what the exact cost is after I am finished but I estimate around 300 euro for a full set, top and bottom.
The S1 had bushes. The S2 and 3 had silent blocs.
I can make the bushes for top and bottom. They are made with very high precision and hardness and use expensive plastic. It won't be cheap. To install the upper ones you may have to drop the subframe. I am not sure it is possible to do on the car.
Note that the tolerances and clearances are even less than for the crankshaft and its bearings. It requires patience and a highly precise way of working to install them correctly.
I can only say what the exact cost is after I am finished but I estimate around 300 euro for a full set, top and bottom.
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Manuel
Re: Suspension and steering ball-joints
Hi Huib,
I am also very interested in a set of front upper and lower bushes in POM. Do you have a photo of the ones you already manufactured for your car?
Best regards,
Manuel.
I am also very interested in a set of front upper and lower bushes in POM. Do you have a photo of the ones you already manufactured for your car?
Best regards,
Manuel.
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Huib
Re: Suspension and steering ball-joints
Sorry, Manuel. I neglected to take pictures. They are now on cars. Below is a simplified drawing. I made the flange of the steel inner bushes thicker so you can do away with the washers.
