I am currently rebuilding the subframe of my series 2 1.3s coupe. I have completely stripped everything down to be repainted, replated, or replaced as required. I am a bit confused about re-assembling the wishbone bushes though (it was quite a while ago that everything was pulled apart, and I only have parts drawings for series 1 cars).
I have just sent away for the fulvia parts/workshop CDs for the series 2, so hopefully the diagrams in that will answer most of my questions, but in the meantime if anyone can let me know...
New bushes have been pressed into the lower arms. The sleeve that fits inside is a good fit, the bolt that runs right through to secure the arm is very loose in the sleeve, and looks like it relies on 2 small spacer sleeves per bush to achieve a reasonable tolerance.
Is this correct and what stops these spacers sliding along the length of the bolt?
Similar question on the upper wishbone, what takes up the play between the through bolt and the steel sleeves that sit in the bushes?
Also what is the order of sleeves and washers on the upper assembly?
It looks like:
bolt, thick washer, upper wishbone, thinner washer, cupped washer that fits in lip of bush, paper gasket(between cupped washer & bush), steel sleeve in bush, Washer?, spacer sleeve?, then reverse of same items? This doesn't seem to work with the spacer sleeves holding the bush sleeves in the right spot.
Hope someone who knows about series 2 subframes can shed some light.
regards
Chris
For those that are interested there are a small number of Fulvias in New Zealand (mainly coupes of varying series, the series 2 I have is Right Hand Drive but with level headlights unlike the UK models.
rebuilding Fulvia suspension
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Huib Geurink
Re: rebuilding Fulvia suspension
Chris
Looks like you are mixing different versions.
To avoid confusion I use the word "bushes" for the series one and the word "silent blocs" for series 3.
The conversion from bushes to silent blocs was not at the same time as the transition from series 1 to series 2.
Early series 2 still had bushes at top and bottom. Top and bottom wishbones are tubular.
Later series 2 had bushes at the top and silentblocs at the bottom. Top and bottom wishbones are tubular.
Much later series 2/3 had silentblocs at the top and bottom. Tubular wishbones at the bottom. Pressed steel wishbone at the top.
Bushes have an outer bush of rubber and nylon and an inner bush of steel and need to be greased. The bolt through them is an M18 bolt with grease nipple.
At the top the outer bush is pressed into the alu casting and the inner bush rotates inside the outer bush. There needs to be a bush around the bolt in the center functioning as a spacer between the two inner bushes. The length of this spacer bush is critical. It needs to be adjusted to within 0,1mm. My computer is at home, all my parts and measuring stuff is in the barn a few miles away. So, from the top of my head, the nominal value is about 58mm with a variation of about 1mm.
Silentblocs consist of a steel outer bush and a steel inner bush with rubber vulcanised between them. The hinging action is done by the elasticity of the rubber. The bolts through them are M14. The arms have to be in the prescribed position (halfway of the total swing) when tightening the bolts to avoid exceeding the elasticity limits of the rubber when the arms swing up and down. At the top there are three bushes stacked around the long bolt in the center between the two silentblocs.
Many lower wishbones on series 1 as well as early series two were converted from bushes to silentblocs. The holes in the alu castings are 18mm so you need small bushes, 18 mm outside and 14mm inside, in the alu castings to properly position the M14 bolts. These small bushes are usually included in the conversion set. I machine flanged bushes when doing the conversion.
On my own cars i go through the expense of machining new bushes. The greased bushes are low friction which give a better, more precise ride than the rubber silentblocs. For the outer bushes I use solid POM or PET rather than nylon or nylon plus rubber. These plastics have a self lubricating property, do not absorb water and are very stable over a wide temp range and lifetime. It is a misunderstanding that they HAVE TO be used self lubricating and thus without grease. They can also be used with grease. The formula's for calculating clearances and life expectancy for an application are totally different between the non greased and greased applications. When using grease life time and permissable load are orders of a magnitude better. One migh use the self lubricating property when designing an electric toothbrush or coffee machine, but I would certainly not rely on the self lubricating property on wheel suspensions of automobiles. The outer bushes have to be designed and made with grease grooves, holes and cavities and with dirt / water protection. For the inner bushes I use steel which is hardened to 50 Rockwell c or more and fine ground to the final dimension. Since I do away with the rubber part i increase the outer diameter of the steel bush to 25mm which reduces the pressure and increase lifetime considerably.
Can you send me some pics and dimension of the parts you use?
Huib
Looks like you are mixing different versions.
To avoid confusion I use the word "bushes" for the series one and the word "silent blocs" for series 3.
The conversion from bushes to silent blocs was not at the same time as the transition from series 1 to series 2.
Early series 2 still had bushes at top and bottom. Top and bottom wishbones are tubular.
Later series 2 had bushes at the top and silentblocs at the bottom. Top and bottom wishbones are tubular.
Much later series 2/3 had silentblocs at the top and bottom. Tubular wishbones at the bottom. Pressed steel wishbone at the top.
Bushes have an outer bush of rubber and nylon and an inner bush of steel and need to be greased. The bolt through them is an M18 bolt with grease nipple.
At the top the outer bush is pressed into the alu casting and the inner bush rotates inside the outer bush. There needs to be a bush around the bolt in the center functioning as a spacer between the two inner bushes. The length of this spacer bush is critical. It needs to be adjusted to within 0,1mm. My computer is at home, all my parts and measuring stuff is in the barn a few miles away. So, from the top of my head, the nominal value is about 58mm with a variation of about 1mm.
Silentblocs consist of a steel outer bush and a steel inner bush with rubber vulcanised between them. The hinging action is done by the elasticity of the rubber. The bolts through them are M14. The arms have to be in the prescribed position (halfway of the total swing) when tightening the bolts to avoid exceeding the elasticity limits of the rubber when the arms swing up and down. At the top there are three bushes stacked around the long bolt in the center between the two silentblocs.
Many lower wishbones on series 1 as well as early series two were converted from bushes to silentblocs. The holes in the alu castings are 18mm so you need small bushes, 18 mm outside and 14mm inside, in the alu castings to properly position the M14 bolts. These small bushes are usually included in the conversion set. I machine flanged bushes when doing the conversion.
On my own cars i go through the expense of machining new bushes. The greased bushes are low friction which give a better, more precise ride than the rubber silentblocs. For the outer bushes I use solid POM or PET rather than nylon or nylon plus rubber. These plastics have a self lubricating property, do not absorb water and are very stable over a wide temp range and lifetime. It is a misunderstanding that they HAVE TO be used self lubricating and thus without grease. They can also be used with grease. The formula's for calculating clearances and life expectancy for an application are totally different between the non greased and greased applications. When using grease life time and permissable load are orders of a magnitude better. One migh use the self lubricating property when designing an electric toothbrush or coffee machine, but I would certainly not rely on the self lubricating property on wheel suspensions of automobiles. The outer bushes have to be designed and made with grease grooves, holes and cavities and with dirt / water protection. For the inner bushes I use steel which is hardened to 50 Rockwell c or more and fine ground to the final dimension. Since I do away with the rubber part i increase the outer diameter of the steel bush to 25mm which reduces the pressure and increase lifetime considerably.
Can you send me some pics and dimension of the parts you use?
Huib
-
Christopher Adams
Re: rebuilding Fulvia suspension
My car has the pressed steel upper arms and tubular lower arms with silentblocs all round, The lower arms are secured with 14mm diameter bolts which are a tight fit in the aluminium castings.
"Silentblocs consist of a steel outer bush and a steel inner bush with rubber vulcanised between them. The hinging action is done by the elasticity of the rubber. The bolts through them are M14. The arms have to be in the prescribed position (halfway of the total swing) when tightening the bolts to avoid exceeding the elasticity limits of the rubber when the arms swing up and down. At the top there are three bushes stacked around the long bolt in the center between the two silentblocs."
OK, I have a total of 6 bushes which are a nice fit on the top arm through bolt. These fit between the two sleeves that fit within the silentblocs?
"Many lower wishbones on series 1 as well as early series two were converted from bushes to silentblocs. The holes in the alu castings are 18mm so you need small bushes, 18 mm outside and 14mm inside, in the alu castings to properly position the M14 bolts. These small bushes are usually included in the conversion set. I machine flanged bushes when doing the conversion."
I seem to have 8 of these small bushes, from memory they came with the new silentblocs, so aren't required for my set-up, but I still don'y know what takes up the play between the silentbloc and the through bolt.
As mentioned in my other email I a can't access the subframe to photograph the bits until I am next in NZ, probably next month, In the meantime the sketches I sent should shed some light on things....
Chris
"Silentblocs consist of a steel outer bush and a steel inner bush with rubber vulcanised between them. The hinging action is done by the elasticity of the rubber. The bolts through them are M14. The arms have to be in the prescribed position (halfway of the total swing) when tightening the bolts to avoid exceeding the elasticity limits of the rubber when the arms swing up and down. At the top there are three bushes stacked around the long bolt in the center between the two silentblocs."
OK, I have a total of 6 bushes which are a nice fit on the top arm through bolt. These fit between the two sleeves that fit within the silentblocs?
"Many lower wishbones on series 1 as well as early series two were converted from bushes to silentblocs. The holes in the alu castings are 18mm so you need small bushes, 18 mm outside and 14mm inside, in the alu castings to properly position the M14 bolts. These small bushes are usually included in the conversion set. I machine flanged bushes when doing the conversion."
I seem to have 8 of these small bushes, from memory they came with the new silentblocs, so aren't required for my set-up, but I still don'y know what takes up the play between the silentbloc and the through bolt.
As mentioned in my other email I a can't access the subframe to photograph the bits until I am next in NZ, probably next month, In the meantime the sketches I sent should shed some light on things....
Chris
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Huib Geurink
Upper arm
Thanks for the pictures and the sketch. I am splitting the thread in "Upper arm" and "Lower arm" I am totally chaotic but a few times per year I make a short attempt at becoming structured. This seems to be one of those moments.
On the photographs it is not entirely clear. On the sketch it is absolutely clear. For the upper arm you have what I call bushes (series 1 and early series 2) mounted in the alu towers. The steel sleeve rotates in the teflon or nylon sleeve with low friction and can rotate over 360 degrees.
The inner diameter of the steel sleeve is 18mm. You have to use the 18mm bolt with grease channels and holes and a grease nipple.
The arm is a late S2/3 arm for use with silentblocs. The holes are 14mm. The combination is no good.
Options are:
1. Get the proper arms and bolts as well as the proper single spacer bush and washers.
2. Replace the bushes by silentblocs
3. Try to get what you have work properly. I am not sure it is possible and in any case you would have to get the 18mm bolts with the grease nipples as bushes absolutely need to be greased.
I am occasionally accused of being too fanatic about keeping things original. Well, I am not really. However, my experience is that it is smart to keep things original as chances that it will work reliably are 100% and nobody looses any time nor money now or in the future figuring how things are supposed to work.
Option 1 would be the original set up for your car.
Option 2 is a factory recommended conversion, but but but ..... the official factory conversion does not include changing the arms from late S1/earlyS2 tubular arms to late S2/S3 pressed steel arms.
Option 3 should be forgotten.
I would go for option 1 in any case.
If the bushes are bad than option one is followed by option 2 or machining new bushes.
I will get back to you on the lower arms later.
On the photographs it is not entirely clear. On the sketch it is absolutely clear. For the upper arm you have what I call bushes (series 1 and early series 2) mounted in the alu towers. The steel sleeve rotates in the teflon or nylon sleeve with low friction and can rotate over 360 degrees.
The inner diameter of the steel sleeve is 18mm. You have to use the 18mm bolt with grease channels and holes and a grease nipple.
The arm is a late S2/3 arm for use with silentblocs. The holes are 14mm. The combination is no good.
Options are:
1. Get the proper arms and bolts as well as the proper single spacer bush and washers.
2. Replace the bushes by silentblocs
3. Try to get what you have work properly. I am not sure it is possible and in any case you would have to get the 18mm bolts with the grease nipples as bushes absolutely need to be greased.
I am occasionally accused of being too fanatic about keeping things original. Well, I am not really. However, my experience is that it is smart to keep things original as chances that it will work reliably are 100% and nobody looses any time nor money now or in the future figuring how things are supposed to work.
Option 1 would be the original set up for your car.
Option 2 is a factory recommended conversion, but but but ..... the official factory conversion does not include changing the arms from late S1/earlyS2 tubular arms to late S2/S3 pressed steel arms.
Option 3 should be forgotten.
I would go for option 1 in any case.
If the bushes are bad than option one is followed by option 2 or machining new bushes.
I will get back to you on the lower arms later.
-
Christopher Adams
Re: Upper arm
Thanks for the response.
I am sure the pressed arms are the original ones that came with the car. I have obviously collected together a combination of parts from the early and later designs. Tomorrow I am going to visit Lambda motors, they supply Lancia parts and deal with Fulvias, I will check what I have against what I should have. I suspect that when I have ordered various bits I have been sent pieces to adapt earlier series one bushes to silentbloc...when all I needed were new silentblocs.
I do have access to another early series 1 subframe in NZ for parts which would allow me to assemble my subframe but with 18mm bolts with grease nipples, but as you say the pressed upper arms probably don't have the right spacing so I would use the tubular upper arms. Would there be problems using the tubular upper arms for any other reason? It sounds as if the greased 18mm bolts give a more accurate set-up which can only be a good thing.
Please do not rush to repond, The reassembly of the car is a slow process...
regards
Chris
I am sure the pressed arms are the original ones that came with the car. I have obviously collected together a combination of parts from the early and later designs. Tomorrow I am going to visit Lambda motors, they supply Lancia parts and deal with Fulvias, I will check what I have against what I should have. I suspect that when I have ordered various bits I have been sent pieces to adapt earlier series one bushes to silentbloc...when all I needed were new silentblocs.
I do have access to another early series 1 subframe in NZ for parts which would allow me to assemble my subframe but with 18mm bolts with grease nipples, but as you say the pressed upper arms probably don't have the right spacing so I would use the tubular upper arms. Would there be problems using the tubular upper arms for any other reason? It sounds as if the greased 18mm bolts give a more accurate set-up which can only be a good thing.
Please do not rush to repond, The reassembly of the car is a slow process...
regards
Chris
-
Huib Geurink
Re: Upper arm
The early S1 upper wishbone is not suitable. The grease nipple for the upper suspension ball joint is on the top right where the rubber bump stopper hits the wishbone.
Some history on the wishbones.
After the 1963 berlina normale, now called the 1C, the wishbones and their mounting changed slightly.
Upper wishbones were tubular. The grease nipple for the upper suspension ball joint was right on the top of the ball joint. In the alu tower were bushes consisting of a rubber outer sleeve and a nylon (or at least nylon-like) inner sleeve. The steel inner bush rotates with low friction inside the nylon part of the outer bush and has a curved flange (very smart). The long bolt is an M18 bolt with grease channels and holes. In the centre between the steel inner bushes there is a steel spacer bush around the bolt. Between the flanges of the steel inner bushes and the wishbone, there are large washers. Equal thickness on both sides (not so on the 1C)
If the nut on the M18 bolt is tightened (I tighten them with relatively high torque) you don’t want the flanges of the steel inner bushes to clamp against the flange part of the outer bush. You just want the wishbone to swivel with low friction without having play. You may have to adjust the length of the spacer bushes or insert very thin nylon washers between the flanges of the inner and outer bushes. The rubber of the outer bushes allows some tolerances. When using outer bushes of solid plastic, the adjustment procedure is even more important. If you spend enough time on it you can achieve almost zero friction with zero axial and radial play. It pays to go through the effort. You will have a different car. I have been making solid plastic outer bushes with hard steel inner bushes for some time. The latest versions are beauties and include grease channels and holes. They are made very precisely and are carefully calculated to give an exact fit after pressing them into the alu towers or the lower wishbone. The steel inner bushes with flange are hardened and precisely fine ground. They do away with the large washers. After carefully adjusting the length of the spacer bush to within 0,05mm they are zero friction and have no axial nor lateral play. There is no rubber that distorts the wheel geometry under dynamic driving conditions. A real driving pleasure. Unfortunately the cost is very high.
If you have fine tuned the length of the spacer bush you may want to mark the bushes for left and right. If you want to remove the spring, the wishbones have to come off. I also take them off when replacing suspension ball joints. I have made special tools to take the ball joints out carefully using an hydraulic press and special tools to put the new ball joints in even more carefully. Correct and precise mounting as well as proper first greasing of the joints multiply their life times.
Insert the long M18 bolt from the front towards the rear of the subframe. If the subframe is under the car, that is the only way you can do it, but if the subframe is off the car you have to be careful or you will never get the bolt out once the subframe is under the car.
Note also that the holes in the alu towers are perfectly in line. This is a great manufacturing job which we have to admire. Applause please!!! Whatever you do, be careful to maintain the very exact geometry of the towers. They look very solid and they are. But it is aluminium and once you start working with levers and hydraulic tools to get bushes in or out, they could be damaged. Even the slightest misalignment of the holes will make it absolutely impossible to move the long bolt in or out.
The leaf spring is attached to the upper wishbone. Since the rubber buffer mounting the spring to the arm is off set from the upper suspension ball joint the spring applies a relatively high downward force on the bushes. This is perhaps the reason that there rarely is any wear on the bushes of the upper wishbone. If any of the bushes fails it usually is not because of wear but because the rubber part dissolves or breaks. Most of the time the bushes of the right hand lower wishbone fail first. Perhaps oil spillage when the filter is changed has something to do with it.
Cherish your alu towers. They are pieces of art made with micrometer precision in relatively high volume. At the time Lancia did have one of the most advanced shops for casting aluminium and iron in the world.
The lower wishbones had the bushes pressed into the wishbones instead of in the aluminium. The mounting brackets incorporated in the alu towers are also very precisely machined. The bushes are similar to the upper ones in construction but they are shorter. One of the large 3mm washers is on each end of the inner bush.
The rubber bump stopper is mounted to the bottom of the alu towers of most S1 cars and hits the lower wishbone about half way when you drive over a bump. This is one of the very few design errors on the Fulvia because the lower wishbone bends sui percorsi massacranti (on the murderous stages). On the Fanalone this was changed. The member holding the front spring was lengthened and the bump stops were mounted at the end. On bumps they hit the upper wishbone right over the upper suspension ball joint. This is the right way to do it. However there was a grease nipple exactly where the rubber bump stopper was supposed to hit the wishbone. The wishbone was changed. The cavity for mounting the suspension ball joint was closed at the top and the grease nipple was moved to the side. The grease nipple was no longer directly screwed into the ball joint but into the cavity of the wishbone.
This solved the problem of having the grease nipple in the wrong place but it made proper mounting of the upper suspension ball joint very difficult. Grease would escape through the small gaps between the ball joint and the wall of the cavity in the wishbone. Through the same gaps water could come in.
The very last series 1 coupe rally 1.3S cars also have the bump stopper at the end of the cross member with the spring. All series 2 and 3 cars have it there.
Around 1970 the car industry was changing from bushes that had to be greased and consisted of several (very) expensive parts to silent blocs to cut costs and eliminate maintenance. Not necessarily to improve driving characteristics. The Fulvia got silent blocs on the lower wishbones around that time as well as lower suspension ball joints which were greased for life (of course much less than 30 years).
At the upper wishbone there were still bushes and ball joints that needed greasing. A few years later also the top wishbone was changed in order to convert from bushes to silentblocs at the top and also convert to a greased for life upper suspension ball joint and get rid of the grease leakage path. At that time the state of the art for wishbones was “pressed steel”
Apart from the 1C and the Fanalone there are three different upper wishbones:
1. tubular with grease nipple for the ball joint at the top of the ball joint. These wishbones have to be used with bushes. The bump stopper works on the lower wishbone.
2. tubular with grease nipple at the side of the cavity where the ball joint sits. These have to be used with bushes. They are for the versions with the bump stopper working at the upper wishbone
3. pressed steel. Used during the last years of production with silent blocs and greased for life upper suspension ball joints
The lower wishbones are basically the same apart from the 1C and Fanalone. The difference being a small anvil half way for the series 1 bump stopper and no anvil for the later ones which had the bump stopper hammering at the upper wishbone. They can both either be used with bushes as well as silentblocs. The difference is in the size of the holes in the subframe. 18mm for early ones and 14mm for later ones.
Early ones also used greased lower suspension ball joints. Later ones used greased for life joints. The greased for life ones can be retro fitted on the earlier wishbones.
Some history on the wishbones.
After the 1963 berlina normale, now called the 1C, the wishbones and their mounting changed slightly.
Upper wishbones were tubular. The grease nipple for the upper suspension ball joint was right on the top of the ball joint. In the alu tower were bushes consisting of a rubber outer sleeve and a nylon (or at least nylon-like) inner sleeve. The steel inner bush rotates with low friction inside the nylon part of the outer bush and has a curved flange (very smart). The long bolt is an M18 bolt with grease channels and holes. In the centre between the steel inner bushes there is a steel spacer bush around the bolt. Between the flanges of the steel inner bushes and the wishbone, there are large washers. Equal thickness on both sides (not so on the 1C)
If the nut on the M18 bolt is tightened (I tighten them with relatively high torque) you don’t want the flanges of the steel inner bushes to clamp against the flange part of the outer bush. You just want the wishbone to swivel with low friction without having play. You may have to adjust the length of the spacer bushes or insert very thin nylon washers between the flanges of the inner and outer bushes. The rubber of the outer bushes allows some tolerances. When using outer bushes of solid plastic, the adjustment procedure is even more important. If you spend enough time on it you can achieve almost zero friction with zero axial and radial play. It pays to go through the effort. You will have a different car. I have been making solid plastic outer bushes with hard steel inner bushes for some time. The latest versions are beauties and include grease channels and holes. They are made very precisely and are carefully calculated to give an exact fit after pressing them into the alu towers or the lower wishbone. The steel inner bushes with flange are hardened and precisely fine ground. They do away with the large washers. After carefully adjusting the length of the spacer bush to within 0,05mm they are zero friction and have no axial nor lateral play. There is no rubber that distorts the wheel geometry under dynamic driving conditions. A real driving pleasure. Unfortunately the cost is very high.
If you have fine tuned the length of the spacer bush you may want to mark the bushes for left and right. If you want to remove the spring, the wishbones have to come off. I also take them off when replacing suspension ball joints. I have made special tools to take the ball joints out carefully using an hydraulic press and special tools to put the new ball joints in even more carefully. Correct and precise mounting as well as proper first greasing of the joints multiply their life times.
Insert the long M18 bolt from the front towards the rear of the subframe. If the subframe is under the car, that is the only way you can do it, but if the subframe is off the car you have to be careful or you will never get the bolt out once the subframe is under the car.
Note also that the holes in the alu towers are perfectly in line. This is a great manufacturing job which we have to admire. Applause please!!! Whatever you do, be careful to maintain the very exact geometry of the towers. They look very solid and they are. But it is aluminium and once you start working with levers and hydraulic tools to get bushes in or out, they could be damaged. Even the slightest misalignment of the holes will make it absolutely impossible to move the long bolt in or out.
The leaf spring is attached to the upper wishbone. Since the rubber buffer mounting the spring to the arm is off set from the upper suspension ball joint the spring applies a relatively high downward force on the bushes. This is perhaps the reason that there rarely is any wear on the bushes of the upper wishbone. If any of the bushes fails it usually is not because of wear but because the rubber part dissolves or breaks. Most of the time the bushes of the right hand lower wishbone fail first. Perhaps oil spillage when the filter is changed has something to do with it.
Cherish your alu towers. They are pieces of art made with micrometer precision in relatively high volume. At the time Lancia did have one of the most advanced shops for casting aluminium and iron in the world.
The lower wishbones had the bushes pressed into the wishbones instead of in the aluminium. The mounting brackets incorporated in the alu towers are also very precisely machined. The bushes are similar to the upper ones in construction but they are shorter. One of the large 3mm washers is on each end of the inner bush.
The rubber bump stopper is mounted to the bottom of the alu towers of most S1 cars and hits the lower wishbone about half way when you drive over a bump. This is one of the very few design errors on the Fulvia because the lower wishbone bends sui percorsi massacranti (on the murderous stages). On the Fanalone this was changed. The member holding the front spring was lengthened and the bump stops were mounted at the end. On bumps they hit the upper wishbone right over the upper suspension ball joint. This is the right way to do it. However there was a grease nipple exactly where the rubber bump stopper was supposed to hit the wishbone. The wishbone was changed. The cavity for mounting the suspension ball joint was closed at the top and the grease nipple was moved to the side. The grease nipple was no longer directly screwed into the ball joint but into the cavity of the wishbone.
This solved the problem of having the grease nipple in the wrong place but it made proper mounting of the upper suspension ball joint very difficult. Grease would escape through the small gaps between the ball joint and the wall of the cavity in the wishbone. Through the same gaps water could come in.
The very last series 1 coupe rally 1.3S cars also have the bump stopper at the end of the cross member with the spring. All series 2 and 3 cars have it there.
Around 1970 the car industry was changing from bushes that had to be greased and consisted of several (very) expensive parts to silent blocs to cut costs and eliminate maintenance. Not necessarily to improve driving characteristics. The Fulvia got silent blocs on the lower wishbones around that time as well as lower suspension ball joints which were greased for life (of course much less than 30 years).
At the upper wishbone there were still bushes and ball joints that needed greasing. A few years later also the top wishbone was changed in order to convert from bushes to silentblocs at the top and also convert to a greased for life upper suspension ball joint and get rid of the grease leakage path. At that time the state of the art for wishbones was “pressed steel”
Apart from the 1C and the Fanalone there are three different upper wishbones:
1. tubular with grease nipple for the ball joint at the top of the ball joint. These wishbones have to be used with bushes. The bump stopper works on the lower wishbone.
2. tubular with grease nipple at the side of the cavity where the ball joint sits. These have to be used with bushes. They are for the versions with the bump stopper working at the upper wishbone
3. pressed steel. Used during the last years of production with silent blocs and greased for life upper suspension ball joints
The lower wishbones are basically the same apart from the 1C and Fanalone. The difference being a small anvil half way for the series 1 bump stopper and no anvil for the later ones which had the bump stopper hammering at the upper wishbone. They can both either be used with bushes as well as silentblocs. The difference is in the size of the holes in the subframe. 18mm for early ones and 14mm for later ones.
Early ones also used greased lower suspension ball joints. Later ones used greased for life joints. The greased for life ones can be retro fitted on the earlier wishbones.
-
Christopher Adams
Re: Upper arm
Huib,
Thank you again for the information. This weekend I went to Lambda motors and saw a number of subframes. This confirmed that I have series 1 bushes which, as you have explained don't really function with a series 2 subframe. I did purchase new lower wishbone nolethane silentblocs which they had in stock. So I will remove the series 1 bushes I have pressed into the lower arms and replace with this set-up. The upper arms I will also do with Nolethane silenblocs so I stick with the pressed upper arms. I already have new sealed for life balljoints which I have been told to repack with grease before installation. What is most curious is that one of the lower arms has the plate to work with the bump stop, while the other doesn't. It would tend to indicate that either old parts were being used up, or that my subframe has been repaired with a second hand arm. There is no accident damage to the car body, or subframe to indicate this however.
So, does anyone out there want to buy a set of new series 1 Upper & Lower bushes? (Presuming I can press out the lower bushes without damage?
regards
Chris
Thank you again for the information. This weekend I went to Lambda motors and saw a number of subframes. This confirmed that I have series 1 bushes which, as you have explained don't really function with a series 2 subframe. I did purchase new lower wishbone nolethane silentblocs which they had in stock. So I will remove the series 1 bushes I have pressed into the lower arms and replace with this set-up. The upper arms I will also do with Nolethane silenblocs so I stick with the pressed upper arms. I already have new sealed for life balljoints which I have been told to repack with grease before installation. What is most curious is that one of the lower arms has the plate to work with the bump stop, while the other doesn't. It would tend to indicate that either old parts were being used up, or that my subframe has been repaired with a second hand arm. There is no accident damage to the car body, or subframe to indicate this however.
So, does anyone out there want to buy a set of new series 1 Upper & Lower bushes? (Presuming I can press out the lower bushes without damage?
regards
Chris
-
Manuel
Re: rebuilding Fulvia suspension
Can you please send me correct measurements so that my engineer can make me a new set? If I do not find the right material in Malta, will you be able to send it to me by post?
Best regards,
Manuel.
Best regards,
Manuel.
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Christopher Adams
Re: rebuilding Fulvia suspension
If you have a series 1, early series 2 subframe with the greasable bolts then I have the bushes I can sell you. If you have a series 2 car then contact Jo by email lambda@lambdamotors.com and purchase some, or contact Omicron who are probably closer. I won't be back near the car for a few weeks so can't get dimensions for you at the moment.
regards
Chris
regards
Chris