Engine failure 1.3S

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Oliver

Engine failure 1.3S

Unread post by Oliver »

I have just bought a '73, Fulvia Coupe 1.3S . Unfortunately a piston or a valve burnt at about 130 kph on the Autobahn. 2 cylinder has zero compression.
Question1: What is the usual reason. The car is still equipped with a working gas equipment from Italy which I am taking out. Could this have influenced the mixture ? What might be the other usual reasons - the rubber flange between carbs and head ?
Question2: I am not yet very familiar with the car. As far as I understand the engine unit and the suspension is all on a subframe. Would it be preferable to let the whole frame with the engine, gearbox , suspension assembled down under the body ? Or do you heave the up engine out of the engine bay? Any difficult steps to be aware of ?

Thanks for any advice. Oliver
Huib Geurink

Re: Engine failure 1.3S

Unread post by Huib Geurink »

Occasionally I also seem to have a subscription to burned valves. I have not found a single firm reason. Perhaps somebody does.

To remove the engine it is not necessary to drop the subframe. However, since you just bought the car you may want to check for rust and rust proof it. If you bought the car in Italy it is imperative you rust proof it immediately.

I do quite a bit of rust prooving. To do a thorough job it is necessary to drop the subframe. When the car is off the subframe you can do a very good job on rust prooving the engine bay. Also remove the sections of the subfame one by one for treatment.
Oliver

Re: Engine failure 1.3S

Unread post by Oliver »

Huib , thanks a lot for the info. Which major parts actually stay connected to the subframe - only the engine and suspensions ? or anything else ? I will definitely drop the subframe and check everything for rust.

I have read with interest the suggested modifications in the forum for the head. As I have a spare head I might consider beefing that up a bit. Would you recommend a specialist and in what dimension the costs might be incl. valve seats for unleaded fuel.

TX, Oliver
P. de R. Leclercq

Re: Engine failure 1.3S

Unread post by P. de R. Leclercq »

The procedure for removing the subframe is as follows:

Disconnect battery, drain radiator, disconnect speedo drive, all electrical connections and separate exhaust at down pipe flange. Remove all hoses - don't forget the servo hose. Underneath the car, remove the gearlever (M8 bolt at bottom of lever and pull up into the car). Remove the reversing light wires and if an S3, the idle control connections. Remove the radiator. Disconnect the steering column - at the steering box (M8 bolt & nut on spline) Inside the car remove the trim around the column and disconnect the three electrical connectors, two white and one red. There are four M6 nuts that support the steering column; undo these and the column complete can be pulled into the car. Remove the front road wheels, undo the set bolts that secure the brake calipers. With a piece of string stretched across the engine bay hang the calipers making sure that the hoses are not stretched. Refit the wheels and lower the car to the ground.

Undo the six set bolts that secure the sub-frame to the car - two in the engine compartment and four underneath. Place a substantial plank that is marginally wider than the car - a scaffold board is ideal - under the floor just behind the gearbox and above the exhaust. Place a jack or axle stand beneath the front of the sub-frame to take the weight of the engine. With a large trolley jack aligned as far as possible in line with the car - i.e. with the handle close to a rear wing, lift the car very slowly. Have an assistant watch at the front for any forgotten connections, obstructions, pipes etc., as you lift. Once clear, the subframe may be rolled out of the way, using a small trolley jack at the front .

If you remove the engine frrm the subframe, you must disconnect the central gearbox mounting and lift the gearbox as high as possible at the front. The engine should be slung from the water manifold that is bolted to the inlet manifold to obtain a suitable angle. Ensure that the subframe is supported front and rear.

Removing the engine from the car is straightforward; remove and refit can be done in five hours - less if one knows the form! On the other hand, here at the garage we generally charge six hours; this allows for all the corroded cap screws in the bell housing, seized hoses, broken electrical connections etc., etc.

A friend and I once removed a subframe in 38 minutes, but I was young then....

Paul
P. de R. Leclercq

Re: Engine failure 1.3S

Unread post by P. de R. Leclercq »

A couple of extra points: the quick way to remove the throttle linkage is to disconnect it from the carburettors, and unbolt the bracket (two M5 set screws), disconnect the choke cable and move the whole lot out of the way

And of course you jack the body up on the plank I mentioned! The car can actually be moved if one is careful whilst jacked up. Keep the doors shut as much as possible....

Paul
Huib Geurink

Re: Engine failure 1.3S

Unread post by Huib Geurink »

Paul already describes how to drop the subframe in excellent detail.

You will probaly find quite a bit of rust in places like under the grill. When the subframe and all the parts on it are out of the way, it is easy to find rust and treat it.

For the subframe itself it would be best of course to have it blasted and then coated with epoxy primer and a polyurethane or pvc based anti stone chip coating. However, you would have to dismantle it completely. Putting it together can be a tough job. To make sure the left and right towers are under the same angle you have to constantly measure diagonals.

Next best is to take one part off, drill a 10mm hole at the lowest point, treat the inside and outside with Tectyl ML and apply Tectyl Bodysafe over the ML on the outside. Then put it back and take off the next part. Doing it one by one this way does not disturb the geometry of the subframe. When you put axle stands under the engine / gearbox or hang the subframe from the spring holder, you can also drop the large subframe section enough to treat the holes. When re-assembling I put ML between the surfaces and on the bolts.

If you go for complete dismantling and blasting, you best drill the holes before blasting. This way the edges will be cleaner and there will be epoxy primer on the edges of the holes. After drilling the holes I use a large screw driver to bend the leading edge down and the trailing edge up to create a venture effect when the car moves. The cavities will receive some ventilation through the venturi effect.

I like the Tectyl products because they are good and available in aerosols as well as 5 liter cans. The aerosols have very thin tubes with thin nozzles which makes it possible to reach places which cannot be reached with the thicker probes of the compressed air guns. E.g. when you take the doors and the panels over the hinges off you see small holes where you can just wiggle the ML nozzles in to treat the rather vulnerable section at the very rear end of the front wings. You cannot reach those sections from under the bonnet as the internal part of the A pillar is in the way.

Because of the solvents the stuff in the aerosols is also somewhat thinner and thus good for first treatment to penetrate rust and seams. And they are certainly practical if you do the subframe section for section.

The Tectyl ML also mixes very well with Owatrol Oil. Owatrol Oil is super penetrating stuff and by itself also quite good for anti rust treatment, but it is washed off over time. Mixing Owatrol with ML increases the penerating capabilities of ML quite a bit.

The Bodysafe leaves a much thicker layer, but it cannot be applied over rust. It can be applied over ML. ML can be applied over rust.

I also drill 10mm holes the same way in the bottoms of the sills. You have to know the construction of the outer sills to be able to judge where to drill. If you don't know the construction, best buy an outer sill as an example.

There are holes on top of the arms at the rear of the subframe. Through those holes a lot of sand and gravel has come in. Blow it out or shake it out and close the holes.

When the subframe is off, you best put new plastic bushes in the gear shift mechanism and a new plastic ring at the end of the shaft. Usually there is play, which results in a resonating stick, the sound of which drives me crazy.

You may also consider to put a new seal and bearing in the waterpump if it still has the original Lancia pump. If the impeller is bolted onto the shaft it is an original pump. On the replacement pumps now on the market the impeller is pressed onto the shaft. Some of them are of such bad quality that the impeller comes off the shaft within 200km.
Paul de R. Leclercq

Re: Engine failure 1.3S

Unread post by Paul de R. Leclercq »

Yes, good advice from Huib.

I have often wondered what Lancia was thinking of regarding the holes in the tops of the sub-frame arms! I assume that they were for breathing, but of course when filled with dirt, they just hold water and the arms rot away as usual...

When I had the whole lot apart, I performed the smelly and unhealty task of seam-welding the subframe and all the various cross-members; in this way, I hoped to avoid the ingress of water by capilliary action. I was fortunate in having oxy-acetylene welding equipment of course, but seam welding is easy: just clean the seams with a grinder and you can run a lovely bead along it without fear of distortion as little heat is required really and of course the whole thing is already spot-welded.
When re-building the water pump, take care to "face" the part of the impeller on an oil stone, it is usually unevenly worn and will damage the new seal.

I have to say I have a water pump that I bought from Harry Manning in 1985. I took it from a scrap car and found that it would not turn. It is a cheap "pattern" pump with nasty cross-headed screws in place of the normal socket cap screws. We tried to open it with an impact tool; this just mangled one of the screws, but after the hammering, the pump was free! It is still perfect. Harry charged me £1 for it; very good value I think!

Paul
Huib Geurink

Holes in the subframe arms

Unread post by Huib Geurink »

The only reason for the holes on the top of the rear subframe arms I can think of is that they are there for adjusting the subframe on a jig during manufacturing.
Being in the slip stream of the front wheels they become the Achilles heel.

Quite a bit of slave labour to seam weld the subframe. I operate on the presumption that it is impossible to hermetically seal all cavities for at least 30 years and thus go to the next best thing which is making sure any water that comes in, goes out as quickly as possible.
P. de R. Leclercq

Re: Holes in the subframe arms

Unread post by P. de R. Leclercq »

Yes, I knew it was a forlorn to hope to seal the subframe, but I believe that seam welding would help.

Of course the main aim was to stiffen the structure.

Paul
Jim Romanis

Re: Holes in the subframe arms

Unread post by Jim Romanis »

This is all excellent advice from Paul and Huib. My brother has just bought a subframe to replace the one on his car so we'll take the time to renovate it properly and rustproof before we fit it. Will probably avoid seam welding though as I only have arc and MIG equipment so am worried about distortion.

As for the blown engine at the top of this thread - how about the piston rings - could this be the problem?Also, regarding conversion to unleaded - most important thing is hardened exhaust valve seats. Estimate 25 euros per valve?
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