Several years ago i bought a Fulvia 1,3S MonteCarlo production ´72 from a dealer, who sells british roadsters and Fulvias. Because of no knowledge about Fulvias technic i thought it would have been a good choice to buy at a dealer. I payed a relatively high price for that beauty. I drove it 2 years, then electrical and engine probs forced me to let it sleep for 5 years.
I bought a 1.6HF bodyshape because the old one is dead, rust everywhere.
I examined the engine and saw that head and block have the beginning number 302.XXXXX.
I think it should be 303.XXXXXX.
Is there any source that can provide what engine i exactly have?
What are the differences, except compression ratio, between 302 and 303?
What type of engine?
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Huib Geurink
Re: What type of engine?
The numbers on head and block are the casting numbers. The castings are the same for 303 and 302. They have the numbers of the type on which they were used first.
The engine number is on de flywheel housing were the startermotor sits.
The engine number is on de flywheel housing were the startermotor sits.
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Oliver
Re: What type of engine?
Thanks for answer Huib. I found 303 under a cover of dirt on flywheelhousing. Really good to have competent Fulvia enthusiast like you.
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: What type of engine?
To add to Huib's succinct comments, briefly the differences betweeen the 302 and 303 engines may be summarised as follows:
CR 9.5/1 for the 303 and 9/1 for the 302
Valve timing:
for the 303: 28/66/66/28
for the 302: 17/65/65/17
Valve lift at TDC:
303: 2.2mm
302: 1mm
Obviously, carburettor settings were different too, but Lancia claimed only a 3BHP power output difference: 90HP as opposed to 87HP.
The 302-engined cars that I have driven still feel very similar to the 303s, with a noticeable "cam" effect at 4500 rpm.
I suppose that I should add that I recently had a short ride in a 1.3HF, at the Fulvia 40 celebrations in Turin. This car of course has the 818 342 engine. This was all hand finished, and cam timing is quoted at both 23/71/71/23 or 24/72/72/24. Sharp-eyed readers will note that the latter has the same duration as the 303 camshafts, and I suspect that they are the same items, since I have found 818 342 camshafts in 1600s too, and these were quoted as having the 28/66 timing. The 818 342 engine had 10.5/1 compression and 29mm chokes (instead of the 31mm ones used in the 303 engines).
The car felt very good I must say!
Paul
CR 9.5/1 for the 303 and 9/1 for the 302
Valve timing:
for the 303: 28/66/66/28
for the 302: 17/65/65/17
Valve lift at TDC:
303: 2.2mm
302: 1mm
Obviously, carburettor settings were different too, but Lancia claimed only a 3BHP power output difference: 90HP as opposed to 87HP.
The 302-engined cars that I have driven still feel very similar to the 303s, with a noticeable "cam" effect at 4500 rpm.
I suppose that I should add that I recently had a short ride in a 1.3HF, at the Fulvia 40 celebrations in Turin. This car of course has the 818 342 engine. This was all hand finished, and cam timing is quoted at both 23/71/71/23 or 24/72/72/24. Sharp-eyed readers will note that the latter has the same duration as the 303 camshafts, and I suspect that they are the same items, since I have found 818 342 camshafts in 1600s too, and these were quoted as having the 28/66 timing. The 818 342 engine had 10.5/1 compression and 29mm chokes (instead of the 31mm ones used in the 303 engines).
The car felt very good I must say!
Paul
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Huib Geurink
Re: What type of engine?
Paul
In addition the diameter of the 303 valves is 1mm more than the diameter of the 302 valves. Some people though say that the difference in diameter is date rather than model related.
Interesting to hear that the carbs had 29mm chokes. Where these the original Solexes or Dellorto's?
For daily driving I definitely prefer the 302 engine over the 303 engine. The 302 pulls very strongly from almost idle revs. The trade off is a few HP less at about 6000 rpm. Since I am not doing 170 km/h the whole day but do a lot of city driving and always prefer country roads to motorway the 302 is much more relaxing. My physical condition is nowhere near that of Michael Schumacher. Nevertheless, a rallye 1.3 with 302 engine allows me to continuously drive (except for the shortest possible fuel (and only fuel) stops) for 12 hours. When driving my series 3 coupe with 303 engine I get tired after 6 hours. But, of course, there are more differences between a series 1 rally 1.3 and a series 3 1.3S coupe than just the engine.
All my coupes have Dellorto's. The 302 engines with the 29mm chokes and the 303 engine with 31mm choke. I have been thinking about trying the 29mm chokes on the 303 engine too.
Huib
In addition the diameter of the 303 valves is 1mm more than the diameter of the 302 valves. Some people though say that the difference in diameter is date rather than model related.
Interesting to hear that the carbs had 29mm chokes. Where these the original Solexes or Dellorto's?
For daily driving I definitely prefer the 302 engine over the 303 engine. The 302 pulls very strongly from almost idle revs. The trade off is a few HP less at about 6000 rpm. Since I am not doing 170 km/h the whole day but do a lot of city driving and always prefer country roads to motorway the 302 is much more relaxing. My physical condition is nowhere near that of Michael Schumacher. Nevertheless, a rallye 1.3 with 302 engine allows me to continuously drive (except for the shortest possible fuel (and only fuel) stops) for 12 hours. When driving my series 3 coupe with 303 engine I get tired after 6 hours. But, of course, there are more differences between a series 1 rally 1.3 and a series 3 1.3S coupe than just the engine.
All my coupes have Dellorto's. The 302 engines with the 29mm chokes and the 303 engine with 31mm choke. I have been thinking about trying the 29mm chokes on the 303 engine too.
Huib
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jay hinton
Re: What type of engine?
Be careful not to believe all the engine block stampings as gospel.
Mike Kristick had sold me a Series 3 Fulvia engine, which I assumed would be a 303 variant. I removed it and found the stamped numbers to begin with 302. Now, the block had the alternator castings, S2/3 bell housing, different Solexes, different oil filler, etc., so it was a mystery.
I began a engine teardown, to discover the 303 sized valves, a S2/3 timing chain, S3 cam sprockets and crank sprocket, and maybe most important, the 9.5 compression pistons, with different raised domes, compared to a 302 piston. So, obviously, this was a factory engine.
My guess is that towards the end of production, Fiat began raiding the spare parts to assemble cars. The car the engine was removed from was a very late 1976 English car, with RHD. They used spare 302 blocks and built up motors. Also, the oil vapor canister/filler was of the earlier type, the one which could internally rust and release metal particulate matter.
I would suggest that the first easy tell tale way of telling which engine you have is to remove the cam cover and take a look at the cam sprockets and chain. If they are S2, you would still not be out of the woods, as Berlinas were still fitted with a 302 engine, so ultimately, either checking valve diameter and/or pistons would be necessary to know for sure .
Mike Kristick had sold me a Series 3 Fulvia engine, which I assumed would be a 303 variant. I removed it and found the stamped numbers to begin with 302. Now, the block had the alternator castings, S2/3 bell housing, different Solexes, different oil filler, etc., so it was a mystery.
I began a engine teardown, to discover the 303 sized valves, a S2/3 timing chain, S3 cam sprockets and crank sprocket, and maybe most important, the 9.5 compression pistons, with different raised domes, compared to a 302 piston. So, obviously, this was a factory engine.
My guess is that towards the end of production, Fiat began raiding the spare parts to assemble cars. The car the engine was removed from was a very late 1976 English car, with RHD. They used spare 302 blocks and built up motors. Also, the oil vapor canister/filler was of the earlier type, the one which could internally rust and release metal particulate matter.
I would suggest that the first easy tell tale way of telling which engine you have is to remove the cam cover and take a look at the cam sprockets and chain. If they are S2, you would still not be out of the woods, as Berlinas were still fitted with a 302 engine, so ultimately, either checking valve diameter and/or pistons would be necessary to know for sure .
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Huib Geurink
Pistons
I haven't seen the insides of the engines of all 170.000 or so Fulvia's which were produced. But as far as I know, the 303 engine did not have domed pistons. The difference between 303 and 302 pistons are the cut outs for the valves. Because the 303 engine has slightly larger valves the cut outs on the pistons are slightly deeper.
The 303 pistons can be used safely in the 302 engines.
I understand from people who tried it, that 302 pistons will also work in 303 engines with the standard 303 camshafts.
The 1.3HF may have domed pistons.
The combustion chamber of the 302 is 40,50cc. Of the 303 engine it is 38,18cc. I haven't actually measured it, but I expect the difference to be in the machining of the head.
The combustion chamber of the 342 (1.3HF) is listed as being 34cc.
The oldest Fulvia I own is a 1963 berlina. The youngest is a 1976 coupe 1.3S. I have also worked on quite a few Fulvia's of friends. I have never noted anything different to what the books say.
One of the differences between S1 and S2/3 engines is the chain and the sprocket wheels.
Other differences, which are important when swapping engines between S1 and S2/3 and vice versa are:
- different mounting lugs for the dynamo cq alternator
- different flywheel / clutch
- different diameter of the chamber for the small ball bearing in the rear of the camshaft
- different flywheel housing. S1 gearboxes don't mate with S2/3 flywheel houses and vice versa.
- S1 heads have a connection for the cable to the mechanical rev counter. On S2/3 heads the hole is closed.
The 303 pistons can be used safely in the 302 engines.
I understand from people who tried it, that 302 pistons will also work in 303 engines with the standard 303 camshafts.
The 1.3HF may have domed pistons.
The combustion chamber of the 302 is 40,50cc. Of the 303 engine it is 38,18cc. I haven't actually measured it, but I expect the difference to be in the machining of the head.
The combustion chamber of the 342 (1.3HF) is listed as being 34cc.
The oldest Fulvia I own is a 1963 berlina. The youngest is a 1976 coupe 1.3S. I have also worked on quite a few Fulvia's of friends. I have never noted anything different to what the books say.
One of the differences between S1 and S2/3 engines is the chain and the sprocket wheels.
Other differences, which are important when swapping engines between S1 and S2/3 and vice versa are:
- different mounting lugs for the dynamo cq alternator
- different flywheel / clutch
- different diameter of the chamber for the small ball bearing in the rear of the camshaft
- different flywheel housing. S1 gearboxes don't mate with S2/3 flywheel houses and vice versa.
- S1 heads have a connection for the cable to the mechanical rev counter. On S2/3 heads the hole is closed.
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jay hinton
Re: Pistons
Huib,
Get yourself a 302 piston and a 303 piston. You can either measure them or just carefully look at them. Observe the top area of the piston on the 303. There is a raised center area, which is subtle, but its there and is in contrast to a 302 piston. This is what I refer to as a *dome*. A side effect of this is that the valve cut out areas appear larger, as they would have to with this dome. While the valve cut out areas would be increased slightly due to larger diameter valves, it would not be as much if it were a simple 302 piston and a 1 mm greater valve diameter.
Anyway, it would not matter if 170,000 Fulvia motors do correspond to the correct engine codes, evidently, there are some that do not, and I have one of them.
To extend this, I believe the old Lancia company would be far more likely to correctly identify engines than the Fiat corporation would, at the end of the production of the Fulvia. But then, of course, that is the effect of *gospel*, a system of belief that remains unquestionable.
Have a happy,
Ciao, Jay
Get yourself a 302 piston and a 303 piston. You can either measure them or just carefully look at them. Observe the top area of the piston on the 303. There is a raised center area, which is subtle, but its there and is in contrast to a 302 piston. This is what I refer to as a *dome*. A side effect of this is that the valve cut out areas appear larger, as they would have to with this dome. While the valve cut out areas would be increased slightly due to larger diameter valves, it would not be as much if it were a simple 302 piston and a 1 mm greater valve diameter.
Anyway, it would not matter if 170,000 Fulvia motors do correspond to the correct engine codes, evidently, there are some that do not, and I have one of them.
To extend this, I believe the old Lancia company would be far more likely to correctly identify engines than the Fiat corporation would, at the end of the production of the Fulvia. But then, of course, that is the effect of *gospel*, a system of belief that remains unquestionable.
Have a happy,
Ciao, Jay
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: What type of engine?
Jay, nearly all late Fulvia engines used castings with 818 302 CAST onto them.
The only allusion o the 818303 specification was the stamping on the bellhousing and the metal tabs on the mixture screws on the carburettors.
As you say, valve sizes are the clue. The SII sedans that I have seen and worked on, had 818140 heads, obviously old stock (818140 is the 1200HF number actually) but this casting was used on 1.3 coupes, and saloons as well as SII sedans.
Paul
The only allusion o the 818303 specification was the stamping on the bellhousing and the metal tabs on the mixture screws on the carburettors.
As you say, valve sizes are the clue. The SII sedans that I have seen and worked on, had 818140 heads, obviously old stock (818140 is the 1200HF number actually) but this casting was used on 1.3 coupes, and saloons as well as SII sedans.
Paul
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: Pistons
Actually the 303 pistons are slightly domed.
The rev-counter drive hole was blocked with a brass plug on transitional engines fitted to cars made in 1970/71 as the company used up old stock. This is especially seen on 1.6HFs.
In fact in England, we refer to some of these transitional cars as "S one and a halfs". Cluse are:
Vernier camshafts, pot-joint drive shafts, SI-type rear spring forward mounts, cooling fan sender mounted on water pump. Gradually these faded away as parts were used up. I have seen early SII 1.6HFs with the early-type thin driveshafts that were intorduced to spare the clutch on the Fanalones.
Paul
The rev-counter drive hole was blocked with a brass plug on transitional engines fitted to cars made in 1970/71 as the company used up old stock. This is especially seen on 1.6HFs.
In fact in England, we refer to some of these transitional cars as "S one and a halfs". Cluse are:
Vernier camshafts, pot-joint drive shafts, SI-type rear spring forward mounts, cooling fan sender mounted on water pump. Gradually these faded away as parts were used up. I have seen early SII 1.6HFs with the early-type thin driveshafts that were intorduced to spare the clutch on the Fanalones.
Paul