Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
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Patrick Renold
Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
Dear colleagues,
I have a Lancia Flaminia GT 2.5 3C which has just been restored. It is all original and I intend to keep it that way. But I would like a little bit more power.
I recently bought for little money a Flaminia 2.8 Berlina for its spare parts (there were only 599 cars produced with the 2800 ccm engine). Motor Number 826.1003.
In the litterature the Berlina 2.8 is described as equipped with tripple carburattors and 128bhp. Why is in the literature the same motorbase for the Flaminia GT 2.8 3C given with 150bhp? Different type of carburettors?
Question: As I have a 3 C web carburettor (from the 2500ccm motor) it should not be difficult to mount the 3C web carburettors to the 2800ccm motor of the berlina. Is this possilbe? (the 2500ccm motor would be shelfed and spared in the meantime as I enjoy more power).
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Randy Adams
Re: Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
Patrick:
The berlina did NOT have three carburetors on it unless it was one of the "berlina speciale" built for the Monte Carlo police. Those are very rare indeed.
The 2.8 engine that you have taken from a berlina has a different camshaft than the 3C engine in your GT. To change the 2.8 engine to a 3C, you will have to disassemble the 2.5 3C engine to obtain the camshaft.
The berlina did NOT have three carburetors on it unless it was one of the "berlina speciale" built for the Monte Carlo police. Those are very rare indeed.
The 2.8 engine that you have taken from a berlina has a different camshaft than the 3C engine in your GT. To change the 2.8 engine to a 3C, you will have to disassemble the 2.5 3C engine to obtain the camshaft.
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Patrick Renold
Re: Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
Thanks Randy,
If the camshaft is the only thing I probably rather buy a new one at Lancia Cape Town than diassemble the 2.5 3C engine totally.
Is the information wrong that the Berlina had trippel-barrel carburettors?
see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Flaminia
Car number is 826.1002 (do not curse me for not restoring these car. Restoration would cost an awful lot of money (hole chassis) and the Berlina is not highly valued contrary to the GT model. I bought the car because it is technically complete.)
Do you know is it a challenging task to mount the 3C web carbs from the 2500ccm to the 2800ccm motor, assume that I can get hold of a camshaft?
Thanks in advance
Patrick
If the camshaft is the only thing I probably rather buy a new one at Lancia Cape Town than diassemble the 2.5 3C engine totally.
Is the information wrong that the Berlina had trippel-barrel carburettors?
see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Flaminia
Car number is 826.1002 (do not curse me for not restoring these car. Restoration would cost an awful lot of money (hole chassis) and the Berlina is not highly valued contrary to the GT model. I bought the car because it is technically complete.)
Do you know is it a challenging task to mount the 3C web carbs from the 2500ccm to the 2800ccm motor, assume that I can get hold of a camshaft?
Thanks in advance
Patrick
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Hubert Enbergs
Re: Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
Patrick,
please go down two lines to topic "change a monocar to 3C" on this page. There you will find a list of the things you will have to do. If you want to use 2.5 litre components on a 2.8 litre you will not be happy with the result.
What a pitty the 2.8 Berlina will go.
Best regards
Hubert Enbergs
please go down two lines to topic "change a monocar to 3C" on this page. There you will find a list of the things you will have to do. If you want to use 2.5 litre components on a 2.8 litre you will not be happy with the result.
What a pitty the 2.8 Berlina will go.
Best regards
Hubert Enbergs
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Geoff Goldberg
Re: Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
Wikipedia is not recommended as a source of information on the deetailed versions of the Lancia models. The best place to go is the Lancia parts books, or their owner's manuals. There are a lot of subtle changes that Lancia did when they modified or improved their engines - changing cams, cam timing, and carburetion were common. It wasn't a matter of just changing one component - they typically retuned the engine each time.
Berlinas typically had single carbs (two barrel). Some might have had the Solex, triple single barrels of the 3B variety. Also, the triple carbs on the 2.5 were (I think) 35's, and on the 2.8 3C, 40mm.
I think the Zagato 2.8 3C's were different than the Touring 3C's, altho the difference may not be that great.
All in all, it is recommended to go back to factory standards - they knew what they were doing. Are you also familiar with Jean de Barsy's nice Flamina site?
Berlinas typically had single carbs (two barrel). Some might have had the Solex, triple single barrels of the 3B variety. Also, the triple carbs on the 2.5 were (I think) 35's, and on the 2.8 3C, 40mm.
I think the Zagato 2.8 3C's were different than the Touring 3C's, altho the difference may not be that great.
All in all, it is recommended to go back to factory standards - they knew what they were doing. Are you also familiar with Jean de Barsy's nice Flamina site?
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Randy Adams
Re: Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
Hello Patrick:
I will echo Geoff's recommendation that you consult a Lancia Flaminia parts book. That is by far the best way to determine what parts you need for the conversion. I opted against pulling out my book to see how many things you need to change. Looking at my book now I see that at least the 826 series engines all used the same cylinder heads so you can simply change the mounting studs and drop the 3C intake manifold onto the berlina's engine.
Geoff, oddly enough the carbs on the 2.8 3C are still the 35 DCNL's but with some jetting changes. Patrick, you would need to make those jetting changes to accommodate the larger bore to the engine or else you may burn valves and pistons with too lean a mixture. The carbs on the Super Sport were completely different models, the 40 DCN. I've never personally encountered them but every comment I've ever read about them indicates that they are not very nice devices, apparently not as well made as the DCNL's.
Patrick, no Flaminia will be as fast as a modern car. The 2.8 3C has more torque than the 2.5 3C and a small amount of additional peak power but I do not think you will find the difference to be impressive. The fact that the car has only a four speed gearbox, with a final drive selected for high speed cruising, will forever prevent it from performing like modern cars do.
I am not sure that you will find a new 3C camshaft so easily.
The lesson I learned with these cars is to keep them running if they are running well and be happy. I have had engine rebuilds that left me with a lousier result than I started with.
I will echo Geoff's recommendation that you consult a Lancia Flaminia parts book. That is by far the best way to determine what parts you need for the conversion. I opted against pulling out my book to see how many things you need to change. Looking at my book now I see that at least the 826 series engines all used the same cylinder heads so you can simply change the mounting studs and drop the 3C intake manifold onto the berlina's engine.
Geoff, oddly enough the carbs on the 2.8 3C are still the 35 DCNL's but with some jetting changes. Patrick, you would need to make those jetting changes to accommodate the larger bore to the engine or else you may burn valves and pistons with too lean a mixture. The carbs on the Super Sport were completely different models, the 40 DCN. I've never personally encountered them but every comment I've ever read about them indicates that they are not very nice devices, apparently not as well made as the DCNL's.
Patrick, no Flaminia will be as fast as a modern car. The 2.8 3C has more torque than the 2.5 3C and a small amount of additional peak power but I do not think you will find the difference to be impressive. The fact that the car has only a four speed gearbox, with a final drive selected for high speed cruising, will forever prevent it from performing like modern cars do.
I am not sure that you will find a new 3C camshaft so easily.
The lesson I learned with these cars is to keep them running if they are running well and be happy. I have had engine rebuilds that left me with a lousier result than I started with.
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Patrick Renold
Re: Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
Many thanks to you all for your help,
together with my mechanic who has spent an awful lot of hours on Flamina Sports and Super Sports I am convinced that we will manage.
I have not had a date with him as this Flamina Berlina 2.8 just jumped at me and the GT is running well. The project has time and I will only start it if I stand a chance of getting a good result.
First of all I need that camshaft. I do not intend to take the original 2.5 3C motor apart.
Randy I am not a power maniac. The fact is that I always wanted a 2.8 3C motor but it turned out differently (less than 180 GT 2.8 3C were made which says everything). I agree we are talking only about small power differences (max 10 bhp) so I do not believe that this torque difference will be a strain on other mechanical parts or that I will have to change the water pump.
The project is limited to the motor adjustments.
Thanks to everyone
Patrick
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Geoff Goldberg
Re: Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
At the risk of adding fuel where it is not needed, a few thoughts - I remember the 40 DCN's some 25 (or was it 30?) years ago on a Supersport. They didn't seem so bad - it was rather keeping them in tune that was the issue.
One of the main issues with these multiple weber combinations is the synching and making sure the carbs are performing well. Surprisingly, over the years, jet sizes get mixed up, or some of the jets have been modified. It helps to be sure you have a group of carbs/jets that are really what they are supposed to be.
Also, the shafts (at least on the Aurelia carbs, DCZ and DCL's) bear directly on the metal, and get loose. Air leakage through these upsets all sorts of things, esp. idle and low end synch from a stop. The fix is to either fit oversized shafts (hmmm) or bore and rebush (Pierce Manifold in Calif does great work on this).
I've fiddled with cams on Aurelias somewhat and that story is online. In the end, there are a couple of ways to go - I've had particularly good luck with a reground cam, but this is tricky. Everyone is an expert, and only a few know what they are doing. But so far, the B24 engine with two carbs and a different cam has a feel more like a 3C Flaminia. But you have to do the whole project well to get those results (ignition, carb shafts, etc.).
Otherwise, stock is best.
One of the main issues with these multiple weber combinations is the synching and making sure the carbs are performing well. Surprisingly, over the years, jet sizes get mixed up, or some of the jets have been modified. It helps to be sure you have a group of carbs/jets that are really what they are supposed to be.
Also, the shafts (at least on the Aurelia carbs, DCZ and DCL's) bear directly on the metal, and get loose. Air leakage through these upsets all sorts of things, esp. idle and low end synch from a stop. The fix is to either fit oversized shafts (hmmm) or bore and rebush (Pierce Manifold in Calif does great work on this).
I've fiddled with cams on Aurelias somewhat and that story is online. In the end, there are a couple of ways to go - I've had particularly good luck with a reground cam, but this is tricky. Everyone is an expert, and only a few know what they are doing. But so far, the B24 engine with two carbs and a different cam has a feel more like a 3C Flaminia. But you have to do the whole project well to get those results (ignition, carb shafts, etc.).
Otherwise, stock is best.
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Jean de BARSY
Re: Why has the same motor in the Berlina less power than in the GT?
Hi Patrick,
I understand you want to "upgrade" your Flaminia by fitting the 2.5 3c carb setup on the Berlina 2.8 engine. According to Sergio Puttini's book, the 2.8 3C carbs are the same than the 2.5 3C carbs. Compression is the same too, but the camshaft is different.
Now you could swap the parts (change the distributor too, as it sits lower on 3C models to fit under the airfilter) on the 2.8 engine but apart from an estethical point of view, I don't think it's a step in the good direction.
I feel that if you stress the 2.8 berlina engine more than it's used to, your risk to damage the crankshaft bearings due to the increase of power (if all goes well, because it might be easy to do and to say, but in the end you should have around 140 BHP or something went or is wrong somewhere). Should you do this, take into consideration that the engine needs to be "ridden in" again is some sort of way.
Have you checked the bellhousing? It should be completely different as the 2.8 Berlina has a very special flex joint inside it (that's why it's larger and made of alloy rather than a pressed steel cover on the Touring bodied Flaminia's if I'm correct). So bear in mind you will have to adapt the flywheel too.
But the luck is with you as it's dead simple to remove a Flaminia engine out of the engine bay because there's no gearbox attached to it. Try to stress the exhaust manifolds as little as possible when you do this as they look very solid but they can break! And be careful with the Touring fenders too! Another thing is to amount the drive shaft exactly (mark each nut and bolt and use new identical retainer pins) as it was as this part turns at engine speed and is very carefully balanced - if not you'll end up with vibrations which will ruin everything.
I read somewhere in this thread that the "power" search on "classisc cars" is meaningless. I fully agree with this and common sense should prefer a single no nonsense good working carb than a rather complex 3C setup, which according to some "mecanics" (be careful where you have them "serviced") are always in need of a fine tune often resulting in bad efficiency, less power, more fuel consumption, more smog and difficult starts. And if it works fine (don't touch it), will you use the "power" and drive like a madman... my guess is no, so it's purely esthetical. So the power thing is indeed a void discussion, as even a new Mini is 10 times faster by manner of speech. But you don't have that "je ne sais quoi" of course...
3C carbs NEED maintenance. It was not uncommon that the middle one caught fire and melted like a piece of chocolat in the summer sun! So keep them in shape to avoid risky fuel or air leaks... It's a miracle that a such a complex part that was intended to work a few years still works 40+ years later... (and then one can ask himself how much of the original 100 % efficiency are remaining today).
But to answer your swapping parts question. Yes you can!
Kind regards,
Jean
I understand you want to "upgrade" your Flaminia by fitting the 2.5 3c carb setup on the Berlina 2.8 engine. According to Sergio Puttini's book, the 2.8 3C carbs are the same than the 2.5 3C carbs. Compression is the same too, but the camshaft is different.
Now you could swap the parts (change the distributor too, as it sits lower on 3C models to fit under the airfilter) on the 2.8 engine but apart from an estethical point of view, I don't think it's a step in the good direction.
I feel that if you stress the 2.8 berlina engine more than it's used to, your risk to damage the crankshaft bearings due to the increase of power (if all goes well, because it might be easy to do and to say, but in the end you should have around 140 BHP or something went or is wrong somewhere). Should you do this, take into consideration that the engine needs to be "ridden in" again is some sort of way.
Have you checked the bellhousing? It should be completely different as the 2.8 Berlina has a very special flex joint inside it (that's why it's larger and made of alloy rather than a pressed steel cover on the Touring bodied Flaminia's if I'm correct). So bear in mind you will have to adapt the flywheel too.
But the luck is with you as it's dead simple to remove a Flaminia engine out of the engine bay because there's no gearbox attached to it. Try to stress the exhaust manifolds as little as possible when you do this as they look very solid but they can break! And be careful with the Touring fenders too! Another thing is to amount the drive shaft exactly (mark each nut and bolt and use new identical retainer pins) as it was as this part turns at engine speed and is very carefully balanced - if not you'll end up with vibrations which will ruin everything.
I read somewhere in this thread that the "power" search on "classisc cars" is meaningless. I fully agree with this and common sense should prefer a single no nonsense good working carb than a rather complex 3C setup, which according to some "mecanics" (be careful where you have them "serviced") are always in need of a fine tune often resulting in bad efficiency, less power, more fuel consumption, more smog and difficult starts. And if it works fine (don't touch it), will you use the "power" and drive like a madman... my guess is no, so it's purely esthetical. So the power thing is indeed a void discussion, as even a new Mini is 10 times faster by manner of speech. But you don't have that "je ne sais quoi" of course...
3C carbs NEED maintenance. It was not uncommon that the middle one caught fire and melted like a piece of chocolat in the summer sun! So keep them in shape to avoid risky fuel or air leaks... It's a miracle that a such a complex part that was intended to work a few years still works 40+ years later... (and then one can ask himself how much of the original 100 % efficiency are remaining today).
But to answer your swapping parts question. Yes you can!
Kind regards,
Jean