International Lancia Forums

Peter Cripps wrote:
>
> > No apology necessary of course, I suspect both of us have
> tongues at least partially placed in cheeks!

at least...

Bart Verbeek wrote:
>
> I will sell my
> soul (poor bastard who get's it) for a 1.3HF or a 1.2HF in
> amaranto montebello with the Torino striping and the steel
> cream-colored wheels.

> For the fanalone-part: I think there are more Fanalone-skis
> (fake/replica/bogus) than original ones driving around. It
> doesn't matter for me, but it's a pitty for the ones who pay
> top-dollar for a real one and discoveres it's just a fake.
> And, I'm sorry, 50K € for just bigger lamps?


There are certainly plenty of Fanalone "replicas", including one in Los Angeles that actually started life as a genuine 1.3HF, but has now been given a 1.6 engine and 7" main lamps (why, I do not know). I've said this before, but there were 1,278 Fanalones made, of which at least 2,000 survive. But most fakes can be spotted very easily, and I've never heard of anyone paying 50K € for a faux-Fanalone (perhaps you run across more fools than I do).

But more to the point, those of us who own Fanalones (real ones) haven't tried in any way to 'put down' or badmouth standard production Fulvias--quite the contrary. So why the insults?. You'd sell your soul for a 1.3HF, but you turn your nose up at a 1.6HF? "Just bigger lamps" is like saying that you want that 1.3HF just to save yourself the trouble of removing the bumpers yourself. I guess I just don't understand all this "reverse snobbery".

Hi Bart,

"I will sell my soul (poor bastard who get's it) for a 1.3HF or a 1.2HF in amaranto montebello with the Torino striping and the steel cream-colored wheels.

In France: www.anciennes.net is a 1.3HF for sale for 16.000€."

In Italy the magazine Quattroruote is selling a fabulous 1.3 HF in such colours for 24.99 euro. It is a 1:24 scale model. Cheap to own and run.
Ciao
Andrea

Dear all,

I am completely overwhelmed by the number of responses ... although some of the responses don't quite relate to my original questions
It's good to see that a lot of you are very passionate about these cars ... this bodes well for the technical support available in this forum ... and perhaps later - when the car is giving trouble - the psychological support

I am very surprised by what a lot of you are saying: 'Why do you want an HF', 'Don't buy an HF, you won't get your money's worth', 'They are not worth the additional cost' !!
This is absolutely not what I expected you would say! Obviously this is not the 'unanimous vote' as some of you own 1.3 HF's and Fanalones, but it still seems to be the general 'tone' of the responses. I am not however .. as Thomas suggests ... scared away yet

To Huib's question whether I have ever driven one.. no unfortunately I haven't since there are very few Fulvias around here ... in fact I have never seen one on the road in Denmark! If Christel is up here in DK at some point, I would cherish the opportunity to actually drive a Fulvia. Most of the HF's currently for sale in Europe are in Southern Europe (Italy and Spain), i.e. it's a long way to travel just to see, feel and try a car. If you know of HFs for sale elsewhere, pls. let me know.

Some of you ask relevant questions such as what am I looking for, how will I be using the car etc.
I'll try to answer those running the risk of becoming emotional and 'fluffy' in my response.

In short I suppose I am fascinated by the rallying pedigree of the HF, the fact that some of these cars came ready to race pretty much straight from the factory is fascinating. The racing pedigree of the Fulvia cars is almost second to none. Alongside the A110, the 911 and a few others the HF is the ultimate definition of a desirable classic car! IMHO anyway.
Lancia has always been known for its engineering solutions and I am told that the Fulvia is one of the best driving FWD cars ever made - perhaps one of the best driving cars overall, I don't know. I suppose Lancia were pioneers with regards to FWD. This is actually quite something for me to wanting a FWD car as I normally hate FWD ... sorry !
I am also smitten by the 'lightness' bug. I own a BMW CSL from 73 which is .. much like the HF cars ... a leightweight homologation special. That some HF cars have alu body parts, perspex windows etc. tells a lot about Lancia's commitment to rallying .. and to winning!
Finally - and very importantly - I have to say that the Fulvia is a gorgeous looking car ... one of the prettiest cars ever made if you ask me.

Reading this list again, I suppose someone could still ask: Well why DO you want an HF, the 'normal' Fulvia will give you most of this! I suppose my answer would be... it's an emotional thing!

In terms of usage you will have gathered by now that this will not be an everyday runner. This will be a car that I take out for a spin when the weather is nice. I do about 4000-6000 km/year in my classic cars. Besides, in the part of the world where I live, you can forget about driving your classic car for about 4 months a year because of the weather conditions .. salt on the roads etc.!

Please keep your thoughts and ideas coming.

Thanks a lot
Torben

Yes, there have been some interesting discussions here. You seem to want an HF for all the right reasons, similar to the reasons I wanted mine of which the rallying heritage, and the opportunity to re-live that feeling by taking part in the occasional trackday and rally, formed a large part. To me, most of the things that make a Fulvia fascinating are amplified in an HF, and one of the reasons I bought a second-series 1600 HF (apart from the fact it was a lot cheaper than a Fanalone) is that I can enjoy all that 1600 stuff (the quick steering box, the negative-camber front suspension, the keep-your-foot-down-and-go cornering) and still have a car civilised enough to use on a regular basis, which I do.

That said, the idea of a super-lightweight 1.3 HF is also very appealing and I understand exactly where you're coming from.

It would be good if you were able to drive several Fulvias to get a feel for them, because they vary a lot depending on what has happened to them over their many years of life. I think a lot of classic car people have a mentality which says 'It's an old car so you have to make allowances,' when the truth is the cars were a lot better when new than the owners think they were. Yet it's possible to make them drive as they should, and age shouldn't be a barrier. I've driven three other S2 1600 HFs and been in a fourth, and none was as crisp and keen either in engine or handling as mine is because I've worked hard to make mine that way. Yet yesterday I drove a replica of a Fanalone rally car which made mine feel like a boulevard cruiser in the corners by comparison, even though the only differences that I could detect were lower-profile tyres and firmer damper settings.

Ownership of classic cars is all about the way you feel about a car, your gut feelings and longings. There's no point trying to apply cold logic to the process. If a 1.3 HF is what you want, then that - if you can find a good one - is what you should have and a late S3 coupe won't satisfy your craving, however good it might be.

The Lancia Motor Club in the UK is running a trackday at Goodwood on 22 March, with 15 Fulvias entered including mine. It's a long shot, but if you could somehow get there you'd be able to get a good feel of what Fulvias are about.

John Simister

Ed

It wasn't meant to insult you, or other Fanalone-owners.
A Fanalone or a real HF is the wildest dream for every Fulvia-enthousiast, me included.
But as normal coupes are underpriced, the real Fanalone is overpriced.
But I prefer the sweet looks of the S1 coupe in 1.3HF livery.
The closest a will get is a 1.3S rallye S1 in that livery. Because an extra 10 or 15K for the real thing,
a real HF, is in MY opinion, too much. Than it will exceed my hobby-budget.

So my answer to Torben:
If you can affort it: by the best coupé you can find in the livery that YOU like! It will be worth every cent!
If you want something special, make your own F&M special! Ebay.it is offering one for the moment. I think it is big fun!
If you've got HF-euros, buy a HF. Take a specialist in HFs with you, because I think there are more fake ones than we all think. I think Giorgio C. is a real help if you seriously looking for a Fanalone!

Bart

Berlina S2
zagato S2
and both are big fun!

For a Fanalone the important things to check are:

obviously (!) is the basic shell a Fanalone shell. Key identifiers are the triangles in the front panel - they should be stamped with a rebate not cut, no passenger door light switch in the door pillar, no wiring loom holes in the rear valance, and the cross section bracing behind the rear seats finishes inboard of the rear arches, transmission tunnel.
Doors, bonnet & boot are aluminium.
No opening quarter lights.
Check ALL numbers on the car and x-ref with the various books

Not an exhaustive list but that would be a start.

Then you would check the bolt on bits. Many, many bits are the same as other Fulvias, but the main ones to check that are Fanalone (or HF) specific are:
front wishbones (neg camber) - same as S2
rear axle (ali ends)
steering box (higher ratio) - same as S2 apart from bush arrangement inside
Engine
Gearbox (first 1000 odd had the piggy back g/b - thereafter the S2 g/b)
Oil cooler
Wheels (13")
Oil temp guage
Tachometer (very expensive)
Seats

Again, not exhaustive but a good guide.

Assuming that the shell is a Fanalone and is in good condition it is the completeness of the bolt on bits which would influence the price. If any of these are missing or incorrect it should effect the price, and you will have three issues :
can you find the bits
can you afford them if you find them
do you care

For instance, if the car has an S2 engine if the price is right so what ? But if it should have piggy back gearbox but has an S2 g/b you may consider that too important an omission. All just a matter of opinion.

And I wouldn't get too hung up on 100% originality, for every person who will comment that it doesn't have the correct engine, there will be another who will proudly state that "of-course you realise the '69 cars used counter sunk plated slot screws on the rear glove box fixings - the plain fixings didn't appear until Feb '70 - are you sure this is a '69 car and not a fake !!"

As a guide to availability - most Fanalone bits ( and I mean those that are not easily faked or mis-described) appear about 2 or 3 times a year on EBay (world wide), but competition is strong. The major specialists can usually get you most things but at a (steep) price. The only bits that I have rarely (if ever) seen for sale anywhere are S1 engines, piggyback gearboxes and rear axles.
So, if you can get a car with all the rights bits you are in good shape, some of the bits that may be incorrect (assuming the car is a Fanalone) are relatively easy to get hold of, and do not so significantly detract from the driving experience that you couldn't use the car.
The only Fanalone specific item I have had to buy for my car is a MPH speedometer, and I am currently looking at getting a new oil temp gauge. That is it - everything else that I have required is standard Fulvia S1 fare.
I would however be very careful when buying "S1" Fanalone engine items. I feel these are the easiest to fake (a new stamp on here, rub that one of there - these are S1 cams "honest gov" etc).

John's point about how good a car is today - compared to what it was when new is very valid. A restoration S3 complete may cost $1000, a restoration Fanalone complete €15,000. To have a complete Fanalone restored professionly will cost very little more than the S3. If it is a strip to bodyshell and complte mechanical then the cost for both will be in the region of €60,000 +. One car is worth €50k, the other €10k.
So another view on the cost - value angle is that I think a well restored to "as new" Fanalone at €50k is good value for a Fulvia (expensive -yes, but we are discussing value), because exactly how many 1.3 coupes have been restored to "as new" ? Very few I would think, because it could never be justified. In my opinion I am not sure people are comparing like with like. Just an alternative view

I have little knowledge of 1.2 and 1.3HF's but I think the same general principles apply, but the cars are even rarer, so i imagine the parts (if you get an incomplete car) less available.

Torben, your reasons for wanting one are mine exactly. Maybe I am fortunate (stupid ??) enough to be able to afford one, but I love it, as I did my other Fulvias - and I haven't even driven it yet !

Torben wrote:
>
>
> Lancia has always been known for its engineering solutions
> and I am told that the Fulvia is one of the best driving FWD
> cars ever made - perhaps one of the best driving cars
> overall, I don't know. I suppose Lancia were pioneers with
> regards to FWD. This is actually quite something for me to
> wanting a FWD car as I normally hate FWD ... sorry !
> I am also smitten by the 'lightness' bug. I own a BMW CSL
> from 73 which is .. much like the HF cars ... a leightweight
> homologation special. That some HF cars have alu body parts,
> perspex windows etc. tells a lot about Lancia's commitment to
> rallying .. and to winning!
> Finally - and very importantly - I have to say that the
> Fulvia is a gorgeous looking car ... one of the prettiest
> cars ever made if you ask me.
>
> Reading this list again, I suppose someone could still ask:
> Well why DO you want an HF, the 'normal' Fulvia will give you
> most of this! I suppose my answer would be... it's an
> emotional thing!


Torben,

John and Neil have offered some great advice. To that I'll only add that the FWD issue shouldn't even be considered; a well set-up Fulvia is utterly viceless in its handling. Even with the 1.6 engine, there is simply no torque steer (if there seems to be torque steer in any example you test drive, this means that the car has bad track rods and/or center link). Take the time to learn as much as you can, so that you're sure you know what you're buying, and buy the very best one you can find. HFs are rare enough that you may not have a great deal of choice but, if you do have a choice, spending a bit more for a good example will ultimately cost less than buying one with serious needs. Whiele there are never a lot of them available at any one time, HFs do come on the market fairly regularly, so don't worry about passing up one that isn't good enough or has too many unanswered questions. I was looking for 2 years before I found mine, and I'm very glad I was patient enough to have passed up a couple of lesser cars before buying the one I own now.

In the end, though, you have listed the best possible reasons for wanting an HF--at least I rate them as the best reasons, as they are exactly the same as mine and, I strongly suspect, the same as anyone else who owns an HF. As I said in an earlier post, if you're not sure you need an HF, then you probably don't. But the corollary is also true; if you're quite sure you want an HF, then nothing else will do. Good luck.

As you noticed already, Torben, there are quite a few of enthousiastic Fulvisti who have found each other on this forum. Also the Fulvia forums in other languages do extremely well.

Lancisti are in general very creative people. Fulvisti perhaps even more so, so we are all different which is excellent.

What must have become clear from above postings is that all Fulvia's (sedans, coupes and Zagato's) are delightful cars each with its own distinctive driving experience. All are worth owning and driving. Few of us can afford to have one of each model. I am not one of them anyway. I am happy to drive one everyday. In fact each evening I have to do drive about 60 km on country roads in a Fulvia coupe otherwise I can't sleep. And I am very very happy if I can do some long distance driving on French country roads or in Italy. For driving pleasure there is nothing that beats French country roads, I mean the very very small ones.

I also like to keep my cars original. Not only out of respect for the car and the people who designed and built the car for me, but also because it is the most practical in terms of cost and reliability.

The HF's are special cars, very much worth having. Some prefer the 1.3HF, some the 1.6HF.

Personally I am quite happy with a 1200 of 1300 coupe. I like good food and good wine. My condition is too far gone to be able to drive at top speed on winding roads for more than a few minutes and I like to drive hours and hours. The 1200 coupe BTW is not slower than the 1300 on country roads because the gearing is lower.

Take your time to decide which one you want.

Well I'm little late in the conversation, but I must said, The people who always are looking for a HF Fulvia Fanalone or 1.2,1.3 HF must Know what it means, 90% do not know. I have owned almost all Fulvias coupe & all Fulvias Berlinas
1966 Lancia Fulvia 2c
1968 Lancia Fulvia Berlina GT
1969 Lancia Fulvia Berlina GTE
----------------------------------------------
1966 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.2
1970 Lancia Fulvia (Fanalone) real not a clone
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3s
1973 Lancia Fulvia Montecarlo 1.3s

I must said the Fanalone is the #1. the acceleration, the sounds,the short ratio gear box. the explosive front look, and many more details that others don't have. I like all, but the ultimate Fulvia (Fanalone) is the most special of all. so my advice learn how to tune, fix, and all the mechanical in a regular fulvia fo one day when you find a HF Fanalone you have found the end of the fulvia experience.