International Lancia Forums

I am definetely interested in your fans including the pillars they are mounted on.

And please remind me in winter to do the test by running my series 3 and series 1 Fulvia following each other and see if there is any significant difference in warming up time. So far I haven't noticed any but I have never run them at the same time under the same conditions nor used a stopwatch. If you are in europe at that time you are welcome to participate in the test and drive one of the Fulvia's. In fact I look forward to seeing you again.

Sorry, Paul. I forgot to address the topic about top speed. For exactly the reasons you mention, I compared the top speeds of the two 1.3 berlina's which have the same tire size and ride height. There might be a slight difference in drag. After all the difference in top speed has to come from somewhere. In any case there are hard to notice factors which play a more important role than the supposed difference in power consumption by the fans.

Huib Geurink wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
>
> > I fail to see how water could flow from the radiator to the
> engine with the thermostat closed. If no water comes in at
> the top, no water is going out at the bottom.



Yes it does Huib, through the bypass hose!

Paul

Huib Geurink wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
>
> As I said I too have heard about the 4HP the fan might draw.
> I even heard figures of 5HP. In physics there is something
> like conservation of energy. I hope this is the correct
> translation in english. It means that energy does not
> disappear but is transformed into a different type of energy.
> 4HP is a lot. In the case of the fan it would have to be
> transformed into either aerodynamic energy, in which case the
> car would move when in neutral and the engine at 6200rpm, or
> into heat in which case the aluminium fan would melt or more
> likely the belt. Neither is the case. It really takes very
> little effort to push a Fulvia. Even if the fan would use 1
> HP and transform that into aerodynamic energy, the car would
> move. Probably at 0,5HP as well.
>
Conservation of energy; quite so.

It is well known that around 30HP dissappear in the transmission and driveshafts of a SII Fulvia.

Obviously this is all lost as heat. Now 30HP is equivalent to about 24 single-bar electric fires. I have often wondered why the car isn't warmer!

I doubt that the fan would melt if dissipating 4HP. Aluminium is a very good conductor, inaddition to which, the item is, of course, air-cooled!

The problem with getting a car to move would not be a matter of horsepower, it would be a matter of torque. I do not believe that even at 6200rpm, the fan would generate sufficient torque to overcome the inertia of a car weighing nearly a ton.

I am really enjoying this thread!

Paul

Huib Geurink wrote:
>
> Very usefull remarks, Jay. The thread has indeed wandered a
> bit. It is I suppose because Fulvisti like myself like to
> take the side roads instead of the freeway.
>
> I know you like electric pumps. I also know you like to
> experiment. Now consider the following.
> An electric spark only ignites a fuel air mixture if the
> mixture is within a certain range. The stronger the spark,
> the larger the range.
>
> Now if you crank the engine with the startermotor and low
> levels of fuel in the float chambers, the mixture is very
> lean and the battery voltage drops to about 9 volts which
> seriously reduces the spark. There are some ignition coils
> around with an external ballast resistor. What do you think
> of the idea of shortening the ballast resistor with a relay
> operated by the starter wire during starting?


When I built my fuel-injected car, I was concerned about the current draw of the high-pressure (7 Bar/105psi) electric pumps that supply the Lucas petrol injection system- the pumps draw about 7 amps and since I use a battery that has only 17AH capacity I decided to adopt the ballast resistor approach. I used a traditional Marelli "Bobina Alta Potente" and used a relay to bypass the ballast resistor on starting. It worked fine.

Recently I fitted an electronic unit and it was necessary to do away with the ballast resistor relay system.

The car starts just as before - and that battery is now six and a half years old!

I must confess that I am using a starter motor from a Lancia Evo however! It is three-and-a-half pounds ligher than a SII Bosch one and spins the engine faster too. Not an easy job to fit though.

Paul

Not really, Paul.

The water pump pushes water into the engine. The water comes out of the head through the inlet manifold. From there the water goes back to the water pump through the bypass hose if the thermostat and heater cock are closed. Nothing goes through the radiator.

7 Amps for a fuel pump!
Quite a bit. And another reason, for me at least, to not install electrical devices such as fuel pumps and electrical fans.

If the dynamo on a S1 Fulvia fails, the car will still run the whole day during daylight if the battery only has to power the ignition. When dark one can take out the fuses 1 or 2 and 3 or 4 plus 5 and 6 (counting from left to right) and still run for a few hours. When it is raining you of course also have to remove the off side wiper.Might make all the difference during a rally like the Tulip rallye which is during daylight only.


Untill 1996 I drove the latest Lancia's which invariably let me down a couple of times per year. I like the bullet proof simplicity of the S1 Fulvia's which never let me down.

>
> It is well known that around 30HP dissappear in the
> transmission and driveshafts of a SII Fulvia.

Unfortunately nothing comes for free. Do you think this may be the reason the top speed of the GTE is a bit higher than that of the S2 berlina as the GTE only has 4 gears while the S2 has 5 gears?

>
> I doubt that the fan would melt if dissipating 4HP.
> Aluminium is a very good conductor, inaddition to which, the
> item is, of course, air-cooled!
>

Good point. It might smell a bit.
When someone asked me some years ago to install a 90 Amp alternator I checked the capability of the single V belts as used on the Fulvia's and arrived at the conclusion that the V belt is only good for about 45 amps. It depends on the duty cycle of course.
The 45 amps roughly translates into 0,5 kw or 0,75HP. If the fan would draw 4HP, the belt driving both dynamo and fan would not last that long.

I will see if I can find my ancient aerodynamic text books and see if we can do some calculations. If we measure the pitch and projected surface area of the blades, the diameter of the crankshaft and dynamo pulleys we should be able to calculate the load on the fan at 6200 rpm of the engine.

Alternatively it might be an idea to remove the belt between crankshaft and dynamo, use the dynamo as an electric motor, measure the current and calculate what power the fan uses per 1000 rpm.
This would then be with the car stationary and thus give us the absolute maximum figure. As soon as the car picks up speed the power would be less.

Huib Geurink wrote:
>
> Not really, Paul.
>
> The water pump pushes water into the engine. The water comes
> out of the head through the inlet manifold. From there the
> water goes back to the water pump through the bypass hose if
> the thermostat and heater cock are closed. Nothing goes
> through the radiator.


Ooops! - these French Jaguars must be corroding my brain - or what's left of it...

Paul

Huib Geurink wrote:
>
> >
> > It is well known that around 30HP dissappear in the
> > transmission and driveshafts of a SII Fulvia.
>
> Unfortunately nothing comes for free. Do you think this may
> be the reason the top speed of the GTE is a bit higher than
> that of the S2 berlina as the GTE only has 4 gears while the
> S2 has 5 gears?

Well, Carlo Stella mentions in is Zagato book that some hill climbers preferred the 4-speed 'box since it consumed less power - and of course was lighter!


...

> When someone asked me some years ago to install a 90 Amp
> alternator I checked the capability of the single V belts as
> used on the Fulvia's and arrived at the conclusion that the V
> belt is only good for about 45 amps. It depends on the duty
> cycle of course.

Exactly, I and a number of people have fitted 2000 (55A) alternators to Fulvias (SII of course) and for this we used to stock 725mm belts at Evolution Engineering. Currently (sorry for the pun) I am using a 55A Japanese alternator, it is about the same size as a 28A Fulvia one.

> The 45 amps roughly translates into 0,5 kw or 0,75HP. If the
> fan would draw 4HP, the belt driving both dynamo and fan
> would not last that long.
>
> I will see if I can find my ancient aerodynamic text books
> and see if we can do some calculations. If we measure the
> pitch and projected surface area of the blades, the diameter
> of the crankshaft and dynamo pulleys we should be able to
> calculate the load on the fan at 6200 rpm of the engine.
>
> Alternatively it might be an idea to remove the belt between
> crankshaft and dynamo, use the dynamo as an electric motor,
> measure the current and calculate what power the fan uses per
> 1000 rpm.
> This would then be with the car stationary and thus give us
> the absolute maximum figure. As soon as the car picks up
> speed the power would be less.

Would this be linear? Actually this does remind me that the works occasionally ran Fulvias without alternators; they claimed that this gave them another 1 - 2 HP.

Paul