Thanks Huib. I agree that the best solution is to have an in-line filter (I installed one a few years ago) before the mechanical fuel pump and an in-line pressure regulator between the pump and the carbs. I'll also consider investing in a pressure gauge (Gunson Lo-Gauge?) too so I can investigate the situation in more detail.
You've also convinced me that to install an electric fuel pump would be an inherently 'wrong' solution, although I appreciate Geoff's comment that it does give the benefit of allowing the system to be primed before starting. Personally though I'm happy for the engine to turn over for a few seconds before firing such that there is some oil pressure before the engine actually runs. I've since found and earlier posting on this subject where the pros and cons were discussed at length.
You mentioned jetting. I crossed checked all the jet sizes / part numbers when I fitted the carbs and they all are correct according to your table (1300/1300S engine), apart from the main jets which are 120 instead of 108/114. I'll be honest, I saw this as a minor discrepancy to be addressed later but am now wondering if I'm wrong?!
Jim Romanis
Dellorto problems
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Huib Geurink
Re: Some additions
The Gunson pressure gauge is certainly a good idea. It is very cheap and accurate enough.
I also like the idea of pumping some oil around before the engine fires up and also the early warning system telling me that the fuel lines and/or filters are becoming blocked. However, if some people are not happy with the few seconds cranking I would mount an electric pump in parallel with the mechanical pump and connect the electric pump to the wire operating the starter solenoid. During starting the two pumps work in parallel and as soon as the engine runs and the starter is released, the electric pump stops. Another solution is to get a simple hand pump from a shop selling outboard engines and put that in series with the pump.
The jetting as well as the venturi size has to be exactly as mentioned in the table at
www.viva-lancia.com/fulvia/qanda/carbs/dellorto.php. A main jet of 120 may indicate that the carbs were used on a 1600 or that it has 28mm venturi's. It is wrong in any case. Going on without the proper jetting is a waste of time. You also need the Dellorto trumpets that go inside the air filter box.
I also like the idea of pumping some oil around before the engine fires up and also the early warning system telling me that the fuel lines and/or filters are becoming blocked. However, if some people are not happy with the few seconds cranking I would mount an electric pump in parallel with the mechanical pump and connect the electric pump to the wire operating the starter solenoid. During starting the two pumps work in parallel and as soon as the engine runs and the starter is released, the electric pump stops. Another solution is to get a simple hand pump from a shop selling outboard engines and put that in series with the pump.
The jetting as well as the venturi size has to be exactly as mentioned in the table at
www.viva-lancia.com/fulvia/qanda/carbs/dellorto.php. A main jet of 120 may indicate that the carbs were used on a 1600 or that it has 28mm venturi's. It is wrong in any case. Going on without the proper jetting is a waste of time. You also need the Dellorto trumpets that go inside the air filter box.
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Huib Geurink
Re: Some additions
Paul, in this case I must disagree at least on b and c.
The noise.
Well, the Fulvia is a noisy car anyway. In addition the series 1 is badly ventilated making it necessary to open the windows in warm weather. At speeds over 120km/h it gets very noisy indeed. The right solution to get rid of all the noise would be ear plugs. Or stick to the speed limit. I have both series 1 and series 2/3 Fulvia's. The difference in noise, if any, has never bothered me.
The power
4HP? I hear this more often but I have never done nor seen any actual measurements. Untill I do, I doubt it for several reasons:
1. I can turn the fan with the tip of my little finger. Hardly 4HP. It may use some power at high revs with the car stationary. However, if the car has a speed in line with the revs the air is already moving as a result of the speed of the car. The aerodynamic load of the fan can't be that much.
2. The top speed of the S2 berlina with electric fan is 161km/h while the top speed of the GTE with mechanical fan is 162km/h.
3. The fan is about the same size as the electric fans people use on their desks or in their rooms in hot weather. 4HP is about 3kw. These electric fans do not use 3kw.
The Fulvia is easy to push by hand because of a.o. the oversize wheel bearings. The mechanical fan does also have oversize ball bearings.
Warming up the engine
If the engine is warming up, the thermostat is closed. There is no water flow through the radiator. The fan cannot make any difference. In fact, if the fan would use power, it would help to warm up the engine as the same engine would have to supply the power.
The noise.
Well, the Fulvia is a noisy car anyway. In addition the series 1 is badly ventilated making it necessary to open the windows in warm weather. At speeds over 120km/h it gets very noisy indeed. The right solution to get rid of all the noise would be ear plugs. Or stick to the speed limit. I have both series 1 and series 2/3 Fulvia's. The difference in noise, if any, has never bothered me.
The power
4HP? I hear this more often but I have never done nor seen any actual measurements. Untill I do, I doubt it for several reasons:
1. I can turn the fan with the tip of my little finger. Hardly 4HP. It may use some power at high revs with the car stationary. However, if the car has a speed in line with the revs the air is already moving as a result of the speed of the car. The aerodynamic load of the fan can't be that much.
2. The top speed of the S2 berlina with electric fan is 161km/h while the top speed of the GTE with mechanical fan is 162km/h.
3. The fan is about the same size as the electric fans people use on their desks or in their rooms in hot weather. 4HP is about 3kw. These electric fans do not use 3kw.
The Fulvia is easy to push by hand because of a.o. the oversize wheel bearings. The mechanical fan does also have oversize ball bearings.
Warming up the engine
If the engine is warming up, the thermostat is closed. There is no water flow through the radiator. The fan cannot make any difference. In fact, if the fan would use power, it would help to warm up the engine as the same engine would have to supply the power.
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Huib Geurink
Electric fan.
If we assume that, if on, the electric fan on S2/3 Fulvia's does the same work as the mechanical fan on S1 Fulvia's it would also use 3kw and thus draw 250 amps from the 12 volt system if your statement is true. It would require a cable the size of the cable going from the battery to the starter motor.
I don't remember the value of the fuse. If it is 8amps, the max. power would be less than 100 watt thus less than 0,15HP
I don't remember the value of the fuse. If it is 8amps, the max. power would be less than 100 watt thus less than 0,15HP
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Huib Geurink
Propellor
And if the fan would use 4HP at high revs, it's propellor action would move the car when in neutral and the brakes released with a speed somewhere between the speed at which the starter motor would move the car and the speed at which 4 galloping horses would draw a carriage.
In any case it would go faster than I could push the car as I don't even qualify as one horse. And, I am sorry to disappoint everybody, I don't even qualify as one donkey.
In any case it would go faster than I could push the car as I don't even qualify as one horse. And, I am sorry to disappoint everybody, I don't even qualify as one donkey.
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: Electric fan.
Hello again.
Well of course I have no information on the actual power consumed by a Fulvia fan; my quote of 4HP (at 6200 RPM) is an estimate based on things that I have read over the years. At idle, the power is of course neglible.
Yes the thermostat helps the warm-up process, but the fan is still cooling the water in the radiator which is delivered to the head (thermostat closed); thus the thermostat will take longer to reach a steady open state. The electric fan operates only when required and does not turn at 6200 rpm!
I must say I do disagree about the noise: the Fulvia is indeed noisy, but better without the fan (above about 4000 rpm). The similarity in top speeds between S1 and SII models may be accounted for by a) increased drag from the larger-section tyres fitted to the SII; b) increased aerodynamic drag - effective frontal area is greater owing to the increased ride height on SII models. Finally, I believe that SI engines were generally better finished internally and probably make their quoted power, which I suspect is not always the case with FIAT-built cars!
Rgds
Paul
Well of course I have no information on the actual power consumed by a Fulvia fan; my quote of 4HP (at 6200 RPM) is an estimate based on things that I have read over the years. At idle, the power is of course neglible.
Yes the thermostat helps the warm-up process, but the fan is still cooling the water in the radiator which is delivered to the head (thermostat closed); thus the thermostat will take longer to reach a steady open state. The electric fan operates only when required and does not turn at 6200 rpm!
I must say I do disagree about the noise: the Fulvia is indeed noisy, but better without the fan (above about 4000 rpm). The similarity in top speeds between S1 and SII models may be accounted for by a) increased drag from the larger-section tyres fitted to the SII; b) increased aerodynamic drag - effective frontal area is greater owing to the increased ride height on SII models. Finally, I believe that SI engines were generally better finished internally and probably make their quoted power, which I suspect is not always the case with FIAT-built cars!
Rgds
Paul
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Jay Hinton
Re: Some additions
What a long and curious thread this has become, I had somehow thought the initial query was to solve a carb problem, which in this case, can only lead to electronic ignitions and even electrical fans, oh my. but its all interesting, isn't it.
Jim, why not start with the basics. Please tell us exactly which Fulvia you have, along with the engine number. Is it 818.203.xxxx or a 818.303.xxxx? Do you have a Series one or two Fulvia? Have you taken a warm compression chek, feel reasonably sure the ignition and cam timing are in good shape, then move to the condition of the rubber carb mounts, looking for cracking/leaking, which no carb can fix if in a bad state. If all the above are fine, then finally, on to the carbs themselves.
If I were working on that car, the first thing I would do at this moment is to remove the carbs. Not only checking all the jets and other emulsion tubes,etc, but I would want to know which size venturis are in the carb throats, as this could change everything. Then, knowing what you have, I would refer to Huib's posted Dell specifications chart elsewhere and make corrections as needed.
Then, with a good condition intake mounting rubber, I would remount the carbs, making sure the carb support is used, and that the carb trumpets are fitted. Next, I would adjust incoming fuel pressure via a regulator, somewhere between 2.5-2.7 lbspsi, then go to balancing the carbs. Best way is to use the Nistri method, removing the two brass 6 mm bolts in the intake manifold itself, and installing threaded pipettes, to which you will attach seperate manifold gauges, hence measuring vacuum itself. Run the engine not at idle, but at say, a steady 2500 rpm and simply turn the carb balancing screw between the two Dells so that the needles show the same level of vacuum. Voila, your carbs are now balanced. All that is left to do is fine tune the idle, and you can close the hood. (or is it bonnet?)
Should you wish to go further, I would do two things. First, I would fit a factory style fuel regulator/glass filter unit, I have one from the factory on my 1967 S1 1300 Coupe. The glass bowl aspect is good, water can sit visibly at the bottom of the bowl, as well as all sorts of dirt, easy way to visually check on the condition of your fuel supply system.
Secondly, I would take the time to mount a electric fuel pump, the mechanical device will never be satisfactory after experiencing the difference. Use a 1979 VW electric pump (aftermarket or factory) , these created approx 2.5-3 lbs pressure, max. The ideal location is near the fuel cell itself, on the right hand side, you cut the metal fuel pipe, approx six inches, and locate the pump, bring electricity to it through the cabin, and with very little work, its done. If you are unhappy with its performance, its easy to remove and fit a length of fuel line to bring things back to original. The cost of this pump is approx 30 dollars here. You can always box up the old mechanical pump and a wrench and lines, and stow them in the trunk (should I be writing : boot ?) should the electrical pump fail, either by Zeus, the laws of inverse complexity, or even in fear of certain Dutchmen whom may not view that new fangled electrical pump as a *good thing* at all.
Remember, once a mind is enlarged by a new idea, its difficult for it to return to its original dimensions....
Ciao, Jay
Jim, why not start with the basics. Please tell us exactly which Fulvia you have, along with the engine number. Is it 818.203.xxxx or a 818.303.xxxx? Do you have a Series one or two Fulvia? Have you taken a warm compression chek, feel reasonably sure the ignition and cam timing are in good shape, then move to the condition of the rubber carb mounts, looking for cracking/leaking, which no carb can fix if in a bad state. If all the above are fine, then finally, on to the carbs themselves.
If I were working on that car, the first thing I would do at this moment is to remove the carbs. Not only checking all the jets and other emulsion tubes,etc, but I would want to know which size venturis are in the carb throats, as this could change everything. Then, knowing what you have, I would refer to Huib's posted Dell specifications chart elsewhere and make corrections as needed.
Then, with a good condition intake mounting rubber, I would remount the carbs, making sure the carb support is used, and that the carb trumpets are fitted. Next, I would adjust incoming fuel pressure via a regulator, somewhere between 2.5-2.7 lbspsi, then go to balancing the carbs. Best way is to use the Nistri method, removing the two brass 6 mm bolts in the intake manifold itself, and installing threaded pipettes, to which you will attach seperate manifold gauges, hence measuring vacuum itself. Run the engine not at idle, but at say, a steady 2500 rpm and simply turn the carb balancing screw between the two Dells so that the needles show the same level of vacuum. Voila, your carbs are now balanced. All that is left to do is fine tune the idle, and you can close the hood. (or is it bonnet?)
Should you wish to go further, I would do two things. First, I would fit a factory style fuel regulator/glass filter unit, I have one from the factory on my 1967 S1 1300 Coupe. The glass bowl aspect is good, water can sit visibly at the bottom of the bowl, as well as all sorts of dirt, easy way to visually check on the condition of your fuel supply system.
Secondly, I would take the time to mount a electric fuel pump, the mechanical device will never be satisfactory after experiencing the difference. Use a 1979 VW electric pump (aftermarket or factory) , these created approx 2.5-3 lbs pressure, max. The ideal location is near the fuel cell itself, on the right hand side, you cut the metal fuel pipe, approx six inches, and locate the pump, bring electricity to it through the cabin, and with very little work, its done. If you are unhappy with its performance, its easy to remove and fit a length of fuel line to bring things back to original. The cost of this pump is approx 30 dollars here. You can always box up the old mechanical pump and a wrench and lines, and stow them in the trunk (should I be writing : boot ?) should the electrical pump fail, either by Zeus, the laws of inverse complexity, or even in fear of certain Dutchmen whom may not view that new fangled electrical pump as a *good thing* at all.
Remember, once a mind is enlarged by a new idea, its difficult for it to return to its original dimensions....
Ciao, Jay
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Jay Hinton
Re: Electric fan.
Right on, Paul.
That mechanical fan, no matter how well crafted, is archaic to a Fulvia. One a cold winter day, warm-up times are seriously lenghtened, one might very well *have* to fit the front grill blanket to prevent too cold running, and its seriously dangerous to anyone not realizing it spinning away at idle, sort of a Italian Cuisinart ready to chop, slice and dice anything placed there, like hands , feeling around for oil leaks around the mechanical fuel pump.
And its noisy. A uncharacteristic, common, noisy intrusion. The sound of a well tuned Fulvia engine is unique and a delight, a additional pleasure to experience while motoring. But not with that obnoxious fan becoming ever louder as revs rise. I still remember to this day, back in Nov. 1998, when Doctore Nistri drove us in his 1969 Fulvia GTE around the hills of Fruili, Andrea revving the Fulvia and hearing that God awful fan intruding on our beautiful drive. I realized right then and there that when I obtained my 69 GTE, that fan would be among the first items set right. Come to think about it, I believe Andrea has been *hard of hearing* as of late, whether this is a result of the Fulvia fan., or if he is genetically predisposed.....
If anyone needs a replacement fan including oversized bearings, I think I have several lying about in the basement.
Ciao, Jay
That mechanical fan, no matter how well crafted, is archaic to a Fulvia. One a cold winter day, warm-up times are seriously lenghtened, one might very well *have* to fit the front grill blanket to prevent too cold running, and its seriously dangerous to anyone not realizing it spinning away at idle, sort of a Italian Cuisinart ready to chop, slice and dice anything placed there, like hands , feeling around for oil leaks around the mechanical fuel pump.
And its noisy. A uncharacteristic, common, noisy intrusion. The sound of a well tuned Fulvia engine is unique and a delight, a additional pleasure to experience while motoring. But not with that obnoxious fan becoming ever louder as revs rise. I still remember to this day, back in Nov. 1998, when Doctore Nistri drove us in his 1969 Fulvia GTE around the hills of Fruili, Andrea revving the Fulvia and hearing that God awful fan intruding on our beautiful drive. I realized right then and there that when I obtained my 69 GTE, that fan would be among the first items set right. Come to think about it, I believe Andrea has been *hard of hearing* as of late, whether this is a result of the Fulvia fan., or if he is genetically predisposed.....
If anyone needs a replacement fan including oversized bearings, I think I have several lying about in the basement.
Ciao, Jay
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Huib Geurink
Re: Electric fan.
Paul,
As I said I too have heard about the 4HP the fan might draw. I even heard figures of 5HP. In physics there is something like conservation of energy. I hope this is the correct translation in english. It means that energy does not disappear but is transformed into a different type of energy. 4HP is a lot. In the case of the fan it would have to be transformed into either aerodynamic energy, in which case the car would move when in neutral and the engine at 6200rpm, or into heat in which case the aluminium fan would melt or more likely the belt. Neither is the case. It really takes very little effort to push a Fulvia. Even if the fan would use 1 HP and transform that into aerodynamic energy, the car would move. Probably at 0,5HP as well.
People who raced the Fulvia's in the sixties cut the belt driving the dynamo almost in two. During inspection the belt would be there and the car would pass. Revving the engine would cause the belt to break so they would appear at the start without the belt.
If I would use a series 1 Fulvia at high revs most of the time I would make a new crankshaft pulley with a smaller diameter.
My first Lancia in the sixties was a Flavia coupe without fan. The fan was simply removed by the previous owner. It did have a thicker radiator though. I never had trouble with water temperature except when driving in Paris where I occasionally had to stop and wait for 15 minutes.
Just half an hour ago I had to quickly overtake a tractor on a country road and pulled up to 6000 rpm in 2nd gear. I must admit the fan is a bit noisy.
I fail to see how water could flow from the radiator to the engine with the thermostat closed. If no water comes in at the top, no water is going out at the bottom.
As I said I too have heard about the 4HP the fan might draw. I even heard figures of 5HP. In physics there is something like conservation of energy. I hope this is the correct translation in english. It means that energy does not disappear but is transformed into a different type of energy. 4HP is a lot. In the case of the fan it would have to be transformed into either aerodynamic energy, in which case the car would move when in neutral and the engine at 6200rpm, or into heat in which case the aluminium fan would melt or more likely the belt. Neither is the case. It really takes very little effort to push a Fulvia. Even if the fan would use 1 HP and transform that into aerodynamic energy, the car would move. Probably at 0,5HP as well.
People who raced the Fulvia's in the sixties cut the belt driving the dynamo almost in two. During inspection the belt would be there and the car would pass. Revving the engine would cause the belt to break so they would appear at the start without the belt.
If I would use a series 1 Fulvia at high revs most of the time I would make a new crankshaft pulley with a smaller diameter.
My first Lancia in the sixties was a Flavia coupe without fan. The fan was simply removed by the previous owner. It did have a thicker radiator though. I never had trouble with water temperature except when driving in Paris where I occasionally had to stop and wait for 15 minutes.
Just half an hour ago I had to quickly overtake a tractor on a country road and pulled up to 6000 rpm in 2nd gear. I must admit the fan is a bit noisy.
I fail to see how water could flow from the radiator to the engine with the thermostat closed. If no water comes in at the top, no water is going out at the bottom.
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Huib Geurink
Re: Some additions
Very usefull remarks, Jay. The thread has indeed wandered a bit. It is I suppose because Fulvisti like myself like to take the side roads instead of the freeway.
I know you like electric pumps. I also know you like to experiment. Now consider the following.
An electric spark only ignites a fuel air mixture if the mixture is within a certain range. The stronger the spark, the larger the range.
Now if you crank the engine with the startermotor and low levels of fuel in the float chambers, the mixture is very lean and the battery voltage drops to about 9 volts which seriously reduces the spark. There are some ignition coils around with an external ballast resistor. What do you think of the idea of shortening the ballast resistor with a relay operated by the starter wire during starting?
I know you like electric pumps. I also know you like to experiment. Now consider the following.
An electric spark only ignites a fuel air mixture if the mixture is within a certain range. The stronger the spark, the larger the range.
Now if you crank the engine with the startermotor and low levels of fuel in the float chambers, the mixture is very lean and the battery voltage drops to about 9 volts which seriously reduces the spark. There are some ignition coils around with an external ballast resistor. What do you think of the idea of shortening the ballast resistor with a relay operated by the starter wire during starting?