From autonewseurope.com's preview of the Geneve autoshow:
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I'm still expecting that the "talking points" is a bunch of speculation,
but the last sentence sure does send a chill...
Ryan
You guys will "love" this...
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vittorio l
Re: You guys will "love" this...
yeah ryan, thats it. i love it this way. gimme more ------- nobody (except lancia) does it better ------
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Huib Geurink
Maybe not that bad ....
Seperating Alfa Romeo is a good business decision as it is turned into a sellable entity.
Let's hope, that it means more attention for Lancia within the Fiat group and, if Alfa Romeo is indeed sold, also more money.
Lancia has never been a big company and I have absolutely no clue how succesful it has ever been financially. As far as I know it had to be rescued from going out of business twice.
The first rescue by Mr.Pesenti also introduced prof.Fessia, who brought with him the basis for the Flavia with its boxer engine, front wheel drive and subframe construction. When the traditonal narrow V4 engine was married to this lay out, we got the Fulvia. Perhaps the most succesful Lancia. Business-wise it didn't help much.
Is it safe to conclude that neither the Flavia nor the Fulvia would have existed, if Lancia was not taken over? I think so.
What Lancia's we would have had in the sixties if Lancia had continued on its own, I don't know. Appia and Flaminia were already at the end of a line.
When Fiat came to the rescue in 1969, again new concepts were brought in from the outside. History sort of repeated itself.
Was it succesful? If it ever was a financial succes I don't know. Perhaps not. But at least after more than 30 years Lancia stills exists. We can't accuse our amici at Fiat for not trying.
I am confident Lancia will be with us a bit longer. Personally I would transfer it to the Ferrari/Maserati group. Not to make Lancia an expensive brand. On the contrary, exactly the other way around.
Within that group there are plenty of creative designers and engineers who work in a less market driven athmosphere and are still succesful.
I bet that none of those designers and engineers can afford a Ferrari. The challenge I would put to them is to design and build a medium class car, which they can afford themselves and would like to drive themselves. Not only that, also their mums and dads should want to own such a car.
I could add a bit more, but one of my Fulvia's is waiting.
By the way, before I go, I would follow the clever idea of turning a few decades of history in two millennia of history and name that Lancia after one of the great Roman roads. I would call it the Lancia Emilia.
Let's hope, that it means more attention for Lancia within the Fiat group and, if Alfa Romeo is indeed sold, also more money.
Lancia has never been a big company and I have absolutely no clue how succesful it has ever been financially. As far as I know it had to be rescued from going out of business twice.
The first rescue by Mr.Pesenti also introduced prof.Fessia, who brought with him the basis for the Flavia with its boxer engine, front wheel drive and subframe construction. When the traditonal narrow V4 engine was married to this lay out, we got the Fulvia. Perhaps the most succesful Lancia. Business-wise it didn't help much.
Is it safe to conclude that neither the Flavia nor the Fulvia would have existed, if Lancia was not taken over? I think so.
What Lancia's we would have had in the sixties if Lancia had continued on its own, I don't know. Appia and Flaminia were already at the end of a line.
When Fiat came to the rescue in 1969, again new concepts were brought in from the outside. History sort of repeated itself.
Was it succesful? If it ever was a financial succes I don't know. Perhaps not. But at least after more than 30 years Lancia stills exists. We can't accuse our amici at Fiat for not trying.
I am confident Lancia will be with us a bit longer. Personally I would transfer it to the Ferrari/Maserati group. Not to make Lancia an expensive brand. On the contrary, exactly the other way around.
Within that group there are plenty of creative designers and engineers who work in a less market driven athmosphere and are still succesful.
I bet that none of those designers and engineers can afford a Ferrari. The challenge I would put to them is to design and build a medium class car, which they can afford themselves and would like to drive themselves. Not only that, also their mums and dads should want to own such a car.
I could add a bit more, but one of my Fulvia's is waiting.
By the way, before I go, I would follow the clever idea of turning a few decades of history in two millennia of history and name that Lancia after one of the great Roman roads. I would call it the Lancia Emilia.
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Randy Adams
Re: Maybe not that bad ....
If all Lancia is going to make are minivans (!) and colorless sedans, then I look forward to the company's end. Unless the company starts building true gran turismos again--that means nimble cars with only two doors, coupe bodies and minimal back seats--I cannot get interested. Huib refers to his Fulvias waiting for him. I've just enjoyed the privilege of driving two of my Flaminias over the past two days and have a date with a third this weekend. Why regret the loss of Lancia if it does not build cars with the charisma of Fulvias and Flaminias? Or even of Gammas, Beta coupes or Delta Integrales?
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Ryan
Re: Maybe not that bad ....
Agreed with Huib.
If you see the magic Luca over at Ferrari has done for the Formula 1
team and now Maserati, I think Fiat management should give him
Lancia too.
Then Fiat Auto can be on its own, Alfa Romeo on its own its own
(definitely not sell to another car company), and then make Ferrari-
Maserati-Lancia. Maybe we can have some more Ferrari-powered
Lancias again. :}
The Thesis would be much better based on this new rear-wheel
drive platform they will use for the next Quattroporte, and also you
could use the engine block of the V8 Maserati.
I doubt that we will see this, and Lancia will just be developed from
within Fiat-Lancia, with hopefully good results. We'll see what the
next 3-4 years brings us. I don't think they will give up so easiliy,
because they desperately want this three-tier company.. Fiat (economical),
Lancia (luxury GT), Alfa (sport heart)...
The Thesis engineering looks brilliant, along with the 156-based Lybra.
Just need to get some BETTER DESIGN! (for the love of God i hope they
don't hire Chris Bangle from BMW... O_O
Ryan
If you see the magic Luca over at Ferrari has done for the Formula 1
team and now Maserati, I think Fiat management should give him
Lancia too.
Then Fiat Auto can be on its own, Alfa Romeo on its own its own
(definitely not sell to another car company), and then make Ferrari-
Maserati-Lancia. Maybe we can have some more Ferrari-powered
Lancias again. :}
The Thesis would be much better based on this new rear-wheel
drive platform they will use for the next Quattroporte, and also you
could use the engine block of the V8 Maserati.
I doubt that we will see this, and Lancia will just be developed from
within Fiat-Lancia, with hopefully good results. We'll see what the
next 3-4 years brings us. I don't think they will give up so easiliy,
because they desperately want this three-tier company.. Fiat (economical),
Lancia (luxury GT), Alfa (sport heart)...
The Thesis engineering looks brilliant, along with the 156-based Lybra.
Just need to get some BETTER DESIGN! (for the love of God i hope they
don't hire Chris Bangle from BMW... O_O
Ryan
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Paul Blokland
Re: Perhaps it is that bad...
I am not sure I agree with Huib's suggestion that Lancia management should be handed over to Ferrari/Maserati. That operation is on a completely different scale to what Lancia is (or should be).
The rumour in Turin is that if the Thesis fails, Lancia is dead. That seems very unfair as the Thesis will probably struggle to sell 12,000 units a year, while Lancia as a brand would need in the region of 250,000 annual sales to survive, and not just low-margin Y's, but also Lybra's.
The success of small quality, luxury cars would indicate that there is room in the market for an upmarket version of the Stilo (witness the plug-ugly BMW 3 Series Compact, the C-Class Sportcoupé and the even the dime-a-dozen Golf). It is just a shame that the Stilo is a relatively poor base to work with.
It seems to me that Lancia needs a decent, good-quality Delta replacement to ensure that current Lancia Y drivers have a model to trade up to. Once that is resolved, they can perhaps create a handsome saloon to replace the Lybra (which I drove last year and found thoroughly disappointing, very rubbery steering, poor body control during spirited driving, and gutless in 1.6 litre form).
If Lancia can not provide some volume sellers, especially outside of Italy and to a lesser extend France, it will not survive. Only once the volumes and profits perk up can they probably afford to make and sell (!) an upmarket coupé based on a Maserati platform.
(How many Kappa coupé's were sold? I don't think I have ever seen one 'in the wild'.)
The rumour in Turin is that if the Thesis fails, Lancia is dead. That seems very unfair as the Thesis will probably struggle to sell 12,000 units a year, while Lancia as a brand would need in the region of 250,000 annual sales to survive, and not just low-margin Y's, but also Lybra's.
The success of small quality, luxury cars would indicate that there is room in the market for an upmarket version of the Stilo (witness the plug-ugly BMW 3 Series Compact, the C-Class Sportcoupé and the even the dime-a-dozen Golf). It is just a shame that the Stilo is a relatively poor base to work with.
It seems to me that Lancia needs a decent, good-quality Delta replacement to ensure that current Lancia Y drivers have a model to trade up to. Once that is resolved, they can perhaps create a handsome saloon to replace the Lybra (which I drove last year and found thoroughly disappointing, very rubbery steering, poor body control during spirited driving, and gutless in 1.6 litre form).
If Lancia can not provide some volume sellers, especially outside of Italy and to a lesser extend France, it will not survive. Only once the volumes and profits perk up can they probably afford to make and sell (!) an upmarket coupé based on a Maserati platform.
(How many Kappa coupé's were sold? I don't think I have ever seen one 'in the wild'.)
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Ryan
Re: Perhaps it is that bad...
I definitely think Lancia should be put under Ferrari management.
That would be brilliant in my opinion.
But, why is the Stilo a poor base? From what I\'ve been told, its
one of the best C-segment platforms out there. GM has decided
to ditch their work on the new Astra and use the Stilo platform.
People who have tested the Stilo say it has a lot of character.
That would be brilliant in my opinion.
But, why is the Stilo a poor base? From what I\'ve been told, its
one of the best C-segment platforms out there. GM has decided
to ditch their work on the new Astra and use the Stilo platform.
People who have tested the Stilo say it has a lot of character.