maybe its easier to discuss Lancias and the West Coast over
e-mail. I've included my addy, drop me a line.
i'm interested if anyone is in contact with fiat about bringing
over some new lancias for the show in pebble beach? an
Ypsilon Momo and Fulvia concept car might spark interest!
later,
-ryan
Last Lancias sold in USA?
-
Justin
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
I can thoroughly recommend the Kappa range - I own a 2.0litre 20v Turbo Estate, which runs like a dream, sharing a lot with the Fiat Coupe (engine/transmission) and the quicker Alfa 166s (running gear/brakes).
Rarity will be an advantage/disadvantage, subject to your levels of Lancia addiction, but the car lives up to my expectations of a Lancia, having owned and run several models over the last 22 years.
Good luck finding/shipping one.
Justin
Rarity will be an advantage/disadvantage, subject to your levels of Lancia addiction, but the car lives up to my expectations of a Lancia, having owned and run several models over the last 22 years.
Good luck finding/shipping one.
Justin
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Randy Adams
Re: e-mail
Ryan, pardon my density, but I don't see the e-mail address on this thread.
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Huib
Re: e-mail
The name Ryan appears in red in above posting. It means an email address is linked to and hidden behind the name. Click on the name and you mail program will automatically start an email message to Ryan. Or put you pointer / cursor over the name and you will see the email address in the lower left corner of Explorer.
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ryan
Re: e-mail
yeah, i put it there hoping that it wouldn't get picked up by the spam crawlers.. though that
is probably wishful thinking :]
is probably wishful thinking :]
-
James S
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA? -Real Answer !!
Lancia re-entered the American market in 1975 with the Beta sedan and newly-launched Beta coupe. They made a huge production of this re-entry, inviting all kinds of automotive dignitaries to an immense black-tie function in New York City, and to test days at the huge new Fiat of North America building in northern New Jersey. They really had high hopes for the Beta line in America, and it might have gone well was it not for the absolutely inept advertising used throughout the late 1970s, and of course the build-quality problems. These cars were not really made well enough to be driven across the vast distances routinely covered by American drivers. Thought I was only four years old, I remember my father's countless problems with his new 1977 Beta Coupe including the spring morning when we went outside only to find the windscreen pressure-cracked neatly across its entire distance. The dealerships were all littered with banners and brochures proclaiming the Lancia to be “The Intelligent Alternative”. Alternative to what?
During the late 1970s the Berlina, Coupe, and "Zagato" (The Spider), were sold, along with limited numbers of the "Scorpion", better known elsewhere as the "Montecarlo". But by 1980 you could see clearly that the writing was on the wall, both Fiat and Lancia withdrew completely from the American market after the 1982 model year, and very shortly thereafter they withdrew all service facilities, including their parts department. There have been no new Lancias sold in the United States since 1982.
Imports of Lancias to the USA by the factory began in the early 1920s in conjunction with several regional dealers. In the mid-1920s Lancia even purchased a huge industrial complex in Poughkeepsie, New York, a former Fiat plant, and the intention was to produce the Dilambda and perhaps other models for the American market. Though some publicity was done for this, no cars were ever produced due to the arrival of the Great Depression. Some Lancias were brought in privately in the 1930s and 1940s, but the number of these cars even currently in the country is incredibly minimal, perhaps there were two or three Aprilias imported during the period of their production. Starting in the mid 1950s, Max Hoffmann became the factory importer, and through his Hoffmann Motors in New York and Los Angeles, and some ancillary dealers, many Aurelias, mostly B20s and B24s, and Appias, were sold new. Hoffmann continued into the Flaminia era, selling a good number of early Berlinas and PF Coupes, but all imports had ended by the early 1960s. Hoffmann never imported Fulvias or Flavias, a task which was left to a newly-formed concern called "Algar Enterprises", which became the main Lancia importer in 1963, again working with "sports car" dealers and repair shops throughout the country.
In 1967, however, the American Department of Transportation passed new stringent laws concerning imported automobiles, including a large number of very complicated provisions which essentially insured that most foreign cars currently in production would have to be considerably re-designed to meet these regulations. Ostensibly these rules were meant to establish a new code of safety, but based on the form that they took, I have always assumed that they resulted from intense secret lobbying by the American automobile industry, essentially a way of stifling the in-flow of cheaper foreign cars. I think these rules effectively delayed the mass imports of foreign cars into America by a decade, because it forced all companies to build cars specifically designed with the American market in mind. Fulvias and Flavias were certainly not designed to meet such largely ridiculous standards. Was their really any reason to prevent the sale, in 1968, of cars largely identical to those which were sold legally for several years previously? But irregardless of this, the law prevented any cars produced after 31 December 1967 from being imported into the United States unless these standards were met. This effectively ended any opportunity for Lancia to import cars, though for one or two more years "new" 1967 cars were still available from Algar Enterprises, --many of these cars were back-dated 1968 models. Other rumors say that dozens of cars shipped were shipped in before the end of 1967 sat in secret storage lots, though we have found no paper trail to support this. There certainly were a number of new Flaminias sitting on a dock in Baltimore until the early 1970s, stuck there because they did not have the correct federalization paperwork. No one knows what happened to these cars, but presumably they were eventually scapped.
Why, you might ask, could American Lancisti not simply import their own cars from Europe? Unfortunately the DOT laws forbade this, too, completely. As an individual you could not legally import or register a car produced after 31 December 1967. Or rather that isn't exactly true, you COULD import a car, but in order to do this you had to "federalize" the car, a process which involved putting up a bond worth several times the value of the car, providing a SECOND IDENTICAL CAR for crash testing, and making a whole series of enormously expensive modifications based on findings by DOT inspections. If they did not like what they saw in the crash test, they might demand that you re-enforce certain parts of the car, for example, add additional metal here and there. Ridiculous things. Realistically, it just wasn't possible to import anything. And this law remained in effect, unchanged, until 1999, when it was changed from pre-1968 to "older than 25 years". So in the year 1998, it was still illegal to import a 1969 Fulvia into the United States. Presently you can import cars older than 25 years, so all the late Fulvias, the Stratos, etc, are legal, and a 1980 Delta would finally qualify.
There was a brief period in the mid 1980s where a "once in a lifetime" exemption applied to importing a car from Europe where some of the more extreme provisions of the rules would be waved, but all of the federalization procedure would still have to be carried-out before the car could enter, a process which could easily triple the cost of the car. And there was a single greater exception to these rules, being that DIPLOMATS of any nation could LEGALLY import any car and then leave it behind when they left the United States with no modifications. Thus it happened that a couple of Gammas, two or three, entered the USA and stayed here. An couple of Stratis and a Delta Integrale or two with the ID plates changed to turn them into "federalized" Beta coupes from the 1970s are also floating around.
But, just to be clear, it is STILL illegal to import 1980s and early 1990s Lancias into the United States, a fact which is not widely known outside of this country, where we all feel sorry for ourselves. If you look on eBay, for example, people are always trying to sell these cars to Americans. We can't buy them!!! We wish we could!!!
That is a complicated clarification, but....
During the late 1970s the Berlina, Coupe, and "Zagato" (The Spider), were sold, along with limited numbers of the "Scorpion", better known elsewhere as the "Montecarlo". But by 1980 you could see clearly that the writing was on the wall, both Fiat and Lancia withdrew completely from the American market after the 1982 model year, and very shortly thereafter they withdrew all service facilities, including their parts department. There have been no new Lancias sold in the United States since 1982.
Imports of Lancias to the USA by the factory began in the early 1920s in conjunction with several regional dealers. In the mid-1920s Lancia even purchased a huge industrial complex in Poughkeepsie, New York, a former Fiat plant, and the intention was to produce the Dilambda and perhaps other models for the American market. Though some publicity was done for this, no cars were ever produced due to the arrival of the Great Depression. Some Lancias were brought in privately in the 1930s and 1940s, but the number of these cars even currently in the country is incredibly minimal, perhaps there were two or three Aprilias imported during the period of their production. Starting in the mid 1950s, Max Hoffmann became the factory importer, and through his Hoffmann Motors in New York and Los Angeles, and some ancillary dealers, many Aurelias, mostly B20s and B24s, and Appias, were sold new. Hoffmann continued into the Flaminia era, selling a good number of early Berlinas and PF Coupes, but all imports had ended by the early 1960s. Hoffmann never imported Fulvias or Flavias, a task which was left to a newly-formed concern called "Algar Enterprises", which became the main Lancia importer in 1963, again working with "sports car" dealers and repair shops throughout the country.
In 1967, however, the American Department of Transportation passed new stringent laws concerning imported automobiles, including a large number of very complicated provisions which essentially insured that most foreign cars currently in production would have to be considerably re-designed to meet these regulations. Ostensibly these rules were meant to establish a new code of safety, but based on the form that they took, I have always assumed that they resulted from intense secret lobbying by the American automobile industry, essentially a way of stifling the in-flow of cheaper foreign cars. I think these rules effectively delayed the mass imports of foreign cars into America by a decade, because it forced all companies to build cars specifically designed with the American market in mind. Fulvias and Flavias were certainly not designed to meet such largely ridiculous standards. Was their really any reason to prevent the sale, in 1968, of cars largely identical to those which were sold legally for several years previously? But irregardless of this, the law prevented any cars produced after 31 December 1967 from being imported into the United States unless these standards were met. This effectively ended any opportunity for Lancia to import cars, though for one or two more years "new" 1967 cars were still available from Algar Enterprises, --many of these cars were back-dated 1968 models. Other rumors say that dozens of cars shipped were shipped in before the end of 1967 sat in secret storage lots, though we have found no paper trail to support this. There certainly were a number of new Flaminias sitting on a dock in Baltimore until the early 1970s, stuck there because they did not have the correct federalization paperwork. No one knows what happened to these cars, but presumably they were eventually scapped.
Why, you might ask, could American Lancisti not simply import their own cars from Europe? Unfortunately the DOT laws forbade this, too, completely. As an individual you could not legally import or register a car produced after 31 December 1967. Or rather that isn't exactly true, you COULD import a car, but in order to do this you had to "federalize" the car, a process which involved putting up a bond worth several times the value of the car, providing a SECOND IDENTICAL CAR for crash testing, and making a whole series of enormously expensive modifications based on findings by DOT inspections. If they did not like what they saw in the crash test, they might demand that you re-enforce certain parts of the car, for example, add additional metal here and there. Ridiculous things. Realistically, it just wasn't possible to import anything. And this law remained in effect, unchanged, until 1999, when it was changed from pre-1968 to "older than 25 years". So in the year 1998, it was still illegal to import a 1969 Fulvia into the United States. Presently you can import cars older than 25 years, so all the late Fulvias, the Stratos, etc, are legal, and a 1980 Delta would finally qualify.
There was a brief period in the mid 1980s where a "once in a lifetime" exemption applied to importing a car from Europe where some of the more extreme provisions of the rules would be waved, but all of the federalization procedure would still have to be carried-out before the car could enter, a process which could easily triple the cost of the car. And there was a single greater exception to these rules, being that DIPLOMATS of any nation could LEGALLY import any car and then leave it behind when they left the United States with no modifications. Thus it happened that a couple of Gammas, two or three, entered the USA and stayed here. An couple of Stratis and a Delta Integrale or two with the ID plates changed to turn them into "federalized" Beta coupes from the 1970s are also floating around.
But, just to be clear, it is STILL illegal to import 1980s and early 1990s Lancias into the United States, a fact which is not widely known outside of this country, where we all feel sorry for ourselves. If you look on eBay, for example, people are always trying to sell these cars to Americans. We can't buy them!!! We wish we could!!!
That is a complicated clarification, but....
-
Paul de R. Leclercq
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA? -Real Answer !!
Thank you for that; a fascinating and thorough summary.
I happen to know that it is not only in the automotive field that such practices exist. Certainly "Underwriters Laboratories" specifications have required all sorts of absurd modifications before electronic equipment may be imported into the USA.
On the other hand, it seems that in the USA one can build almost any kind of special and drive it on public roads; in Europe this is sadly not the case. Things are still OK in England however in this regard, but in Italy for example, you cannot even add a roll cage to your car; "non omolgato" they say!
Paul
I happen to know that it is not only in the automotive field that such practices exist. Certainly "Underwriters Laboratories" specifications have required all sorts of absurd modifications before electronic equipment may be imported into the USA.
On the other hand, it seems that in the USA one can build almost any kind of special and drive it on public roads; in Europe this is sadly not the case. Things are still OK in England however in this regard, but in Italy for example, you cannot even add a roll cage to your car; "non omolgato" they say!
Paul
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James S
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
Paul--
Sadly that isn't true in the USA. You can build anything you like, but they cannot be driven public roads. The exceptions are some kit-cars based on production cars which can then be "legally" registered as their original cars. But in cases where crashes happen insurers often have a way out of making payment if the cars have been substantially modified from new.
In the USA the real issue is with insurance. In more than 45 of the 50 states, you need to provide proof of insurance BEFORE you register a car and get license plates and registration documents. No insurance company would be willing to insure a home-built car unless they were being deceived, such as in the case of kit-cars. But now most insurers require photographs of all cars before they are insured, this is a way of limiting their liability in case of an accident.
It is also true that in the USA you basically cannot get standard car insurance for classic cars. The idea of insuring a Lancia Aurelia, for example, on a standard insurance policy just would not fly, you would not find any insurer with enough data on a 1955 Lancia to be willing to issue a policy. Only classic insurance, with limited miles, is easily available.
The exception to this is that dealers in some states can get "dealer plates" with open insurance policies allowing them to drive any car with the same plates. In New York you only have to sell five cars per year to qualify for this, so it is an alternative for serious collectors who want to drive their cars more than the 5,000 miles per year alloted by standard classic car insurance.
But the rules of the game over here are decidedly stacked against people with classic cars. If your vehicle falls out of certain "normal" guidelines you are just out of luck.
Sadly that isn't true in the USA. You can build anything you like, but they cannot be driven public roads. The exceptions are some kit-cars based on production cars which can then be "legally" registered as their original cars. But in cases where crashes happen insurers often have a way out of making payment if the cars have been substantially modified from new.
In the USA the real issue is with insurance. In more than 45 of the 50 states, you need to provide proof of insurance BEFORE you register a car and get license plates and registration documents. No insurance company would be willing to insure a home-built car unless they were being deceived, such as in the case of kit-cars. But now most insurers require photographs of all cars before they are insured, this is a way of limiting their liability in case of an accident.
It is also true that in the USA you basically cannot get standard car insurance for classic cars. The idea of insuring a Lancia Aurelia, for example, on a standard insurance policy just would not fly, you would not find any insurer with enough data on a 1955 Lancia to be willing to issue a policy. Only classic insurance, with limited miles, is easily available.
The exception to this is that dealers in some states can get "dealer plates" with open insurance policies allowing them to drive any car with the same plates. In New York you only have to sell five cars per year to qualify for this, so it is an alternative for serious collectors who want to drive their cars more than the 5,000 miles per year alloted by standard classic car insurance.
But the rules of the game over here are decidedly stacked against people with classic cars. If your vehicle falls out of certain "normal" guidelines you are just out of luck.