Fanalone "Piggy-back" Gearbox

[ncundy]

Well..yes and no Ed. You're right that the S2 had a Bosch alternative to the Deucellier (not spotted that) however it's a different Bosch starter motor to that on the S1's (although the Data book says it's the same!!). So if you have a 126 tooth flywheel there looks like there is a Bosch and Deucelier choice; but I'm not sure if the either one would fit a 104 tooth flywheel as fitted to most of the S1 cars.

If people can stand the tension I'll check at the weekend

[Ed Levin]

I'll be very interested to learn what you discover, given that I'm going to be running a very early piggyback with the new engine. I'll attempt to remain calm until the weekend.

[VAR1016]

Cannot comment about the teeth (though I think it's unlikely) but I am pretty sure that the the S2 starter motor will not fit in the SI hole!

As I wrote before I tried a Ducellier on a 1600 and it was pretty hopeless - and as I also wrote, I saw the Ducellier equipment - starters and alternators only on later cars - at elast as original equipment.

Paul

[Ed Levin]

I have both Bosch and Ducellier, and frankly I'd prefer to use the Bosch. I'll be hauling the early piggyback out of its storage and starting to evaluate it maybe next week; it should be pretty clear which--if either--of my Bosch and Ducellier starter motors will fit. But the 'box is a preproduction race unit, so anything's possible. I'm expecting a surprise or two.

[ekranoplan]

A new starter motor is in development to replace Ducellier which will offer hi torque and lower weight and will cost around £150 + VAT.

Will post more soon after testing.

[ncundy]

As it happens I found an S2 Bosch motor in amongst the Ducellier ones in my loft so I compared the S2 Bosch against my S1 Bosch and offered them up to my Fanalone engine (#486) and my brother S2 1600 engine.

Basically it just confirms what Paul said - you can't fit an S2 starter to an S1 engine (unless it is a post #610 Fanalone - not sure what the break point is on other Fulvias).

I've attached a couple of slides that show all the differences, but they won't physically fit (flange is different), they won't engage (throw on gear is different) and won't mesh (different number of teeth and diameter).

The differences on the engine that lead to this are:
different crankcase (to accommodate the different starter - starter flange on crankcase is different dimensionally)
different bell housing (to mate with the different crankcase - see above)
different flywheel (126 teeth, vs 104, 27mm thick vs 19mm which means the starter ring is further away from the starter motor flange)

They may be a few other differences that I haven't picked up but I'll leave that to others to add to.

[Peter de Wit]

Paul, to your question about S1.5:
I had a S2 HF with thin drive shafts like the fanalone, but standard 5 speed 740 gearbox. That one had S1 flanges then of course, otherwise the thin drive shafts would not fit. I had a HF S2 with normal drive shafts and 5 speed 740 gearbox, but S1 flanges on the box. And had multiple S2 HFs with S2 flanges on the 740 'box.

Does not answer your question completely. But I do not believe the piggyback 'box was used on the S2 HF. But it is clear they 'messed around a bit'.

[ekranoplan]

Nice pics Neil

However, my Ducellier has 9 teeth not 12.

Best

[ncundy]

I never checked a Ducellier one - that'll teach me, never assume anything

[Ed Levin]

Neil,

I've got several different starters, one of which is a Ducellier (6206-A) which has the large body of your "S2 Bosch" (106mm bolt centers), but which has 9 teeth and as 12mm throat on the pinion, like your "S1 Bosch - up to 609". Oh, and it weighs 5.3kg.

But it gets worse. On my early drivetrain, the gearbox bell housing is set up for the smaller 90mm diameter starter, as you'd expect for a very early piggyback 'box designed for a very early Fanalone engine with a 104-tooth flywheel. And I have the original 104-tooth flywheel. But being pre-production, it's a 19mm 1.3HF 104-tooth flywheel (Dati Tecnici "type 3"), not either of the 818.540 27mm types (Dati Technici "type 4"). How all that is going back together is anyone's guess...