Rust was a big problem during the seventies, there was a solution only: the total galvanizing process.
BMW first introduced this process on 02 series, my father (Fiat technology manager 1963-1998) went to Monaco (Munich in English, moderated) with a couple of Lingotto engineers to visit the production line in the 1968. They came back with an enthusiastic response, but Fiat disagreed about the costs. And nobody could be able to build an installation like that in Italy. So the first cabin for galvanizing process arrived in Chivasso in the 1989 only, five years after the engineer Ghidella request.
UK is an island with a particular climate, but Fiat 127 rusted very well in Rapallo also.
BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
As I saw it, the show wasn't about testing a car but about Lancia as a company. Remember that at the start they showed a list of companies (not cars) where they put Lancia at the top of the list of most creative companies. It was also clear throughout the program that they liked to drive a Lancia and appreciated the beauty. I am sure most of us couldn't agree more. All the ingredients to make Lancia a very successful car company. Still, this never happened. The company sort of lingers on between almost dead and just surviving.
They used the Beta as the epitome of the problem. Why not see it as a traumatic experience which was never properly healed. A therapeutic strategy (although a bit old fashioned) is to bring the problem out in the open.
One way of looking at it is that an unbalance of mind, body and soul or spontaneity, content and form or whatever you like to call it prevented growth to maturity. Another way of looking at it is that there is too much male energy in the company and not enough female energy. Vincenzo was a very strong man and also the Agnelli family is strongly male dominated. Italy is also the country of the catholic church which has been male dominated since its foundation 2000 years ago. In fact the catholic church is female unfriendly in a way typical for male stomach patients. Paul, the founder of the church, had a stomach problem. He says so in one of his letters to the Corinthians.
Note that Lancia is a name with only male energy. The L is sharp, both in sound and appearance. Lancia is also the Italian word for lance. The verb lanciare means to throw. Lancia is 3rd person singular: he throws. Also, Vincenzo was known as womanizer, planting seeds here, there, everywhere and not worry about the consequences nor heritage.
I presented a broad picture. It can be made even broader but the time is not right. The time however is very right to get things moving in the right direction. The Top Gear program could not have come at a better time.
In august the collective consciousness on this world started shifting. On Dec 1 about 80% of the people had completed the change. If you sit on a star and look at the earth the human race looks like an ants heap. If you sit on Mount Everest, a company looks like an ants heap. The ants have started to move differently. The heaps are changing. People have come off their asses and started to use their bellies to organise things differently (organs are primarily in the belly). People who think in economy terms would say the recession is ending.
Drastic action by Lancia would not produce result as it is a male action. It would be counterproductive. I would place more women at the top of the company which I might have to treat for a couple of years to make sure there are no patriarchal leftovers in their muscles and spine. And make sure no one at the top either male or female has a stomach or other belly problem. I mean not suppress the problem by medicine but by making sure all parts of the input system are used correctly and function correctly from within. A woman like Claire would be a good choice for a top job. Her spine is perfect. All vertebrae move smoothly and evenly so she does not miss signals nor skips possibilities for creative output. She may not have enough weight today but since her input system works perfectly she will grow from the rain drops on her head and the wind in her face or in other words she will pick up any word, any movement, any mood then digest it, gain weight and be creative without prejudice or other useless knowledge. Since her input system works correctly she does not have to use her output system to gain weight by putting other people down. Her output system is 100% available to let a company grow. No hidden agenda’s.
Let me conclude by going back to the catholic church again. As I said above it has all the symptoms of a male stomach patient. It’s input system does not work correctly. It misses signals. As a result the pope forbids the use of condoms in a world where there is HIV. The church lives in its own world on its own diet. Note that it is not my intention to change this into a discussion about the catholic church. I use it as an example. I hope you see the congruity.
They used the Beta as the epitome of the problem. Why not see it as a traumatic experience which was never properly healed. A therapeutic strategy (although a bit old fashioned) is to bring the problem out in the open.
One way of looking at it is that an unbalance of mind, body and soul or spontaneity, content and form or whatever you like to call it prevented growth to maturity. Another way of looking at it is that there is too much male energy in the company and not enough female energy. Vincenzo was a very strong man and also the Agnelli family is strongly male dominated. Italy is also the country of the catholic church which has been male dominated since its foundation 2000 years ago. In fact the catholic church is female unfriendly in a way typical for male stomach patients. Paul, the founder of the church, had a stomach problem. He says so in one of his letters to the Corinthians.
Note that Lancia is a name with only male energy. The L is sharp, both in sound and appearance. Lancia is also the Italian word for lance. The verb lanciare means to throw. Lancia is 3rd person singular: he throws. Also, Vincenzo was known as womanizer, planting seeds here, there, everywhere and not worry about the consequences nor heritage.
I presented a broad picture. It can be made even broader but the time is not right. The time however is very right to get things moving in the right direction. The Top Gear program could not have come at a better time.
In august the collective consciousness on this world started shifting. On Dec 1 about 80% of the people had completed the change. If you sit on a star and look at the earth the human race looks like an ants heap. If you sit on Mount Everest, a company looks like an ants heap. The ants have started to move differently. The heaps are changing. People have come off their asses and started to use their bellies to organise things differently (organs are primarily in the belly). People who think in economy terms would say the recession is ending.
Drastic action by Lancia would not produce result as it is a male action. It would be counterproductive. I would place more women at the top of the company which I might have to treat for a couple of years to make sure there are no patriarchal leftovers in their muscles and spine. And make sure no one at the top either male or female has a stomach or other belly problem. I mean not suppress the problem by medicine but by making sure all parts of the input system are used correctly and function correctly from within. A woman like Claire would be a good choice for a top job. Her spine is perfect. All vertebrae move smoothly and evenly so she does not miss signals nor skips possibilities for creative output. She may not have enough weight today but since her input system works perfectly she will grow from the rain drops on her head and the wind in her face or in other words she will pick up any word, any movement, any mood then digest it, gain weight and be creative without prejudice or other useless knowledge. Since her input system works correctly she does not have to use her output system to gain weight by putting other people down. Her output system is 100% available to let a company grow. No hidden agenda’s.
Let me conclude by going back to the catholic church again. As I said above it has all the symptoms of a male stomach patient. It’s input system does not work correctly. It misses signals. As a result the pope forbids the use of condoms in a world where there is HIV. The church lives in its own world on its own diet. Note that it is not my intention to change this into a discussion about the catholic church. I use it as an example. I hope you see the congruity.
-
Ralph deMasi
- Posts: 56
- Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 00:29
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
Huib,
As I read your statement three thoughts came to mind;
"Don't bogart that joint my friend, pass it over to me" (a song fron the Easy Rider soundtrack)
We vilified Gamma for rambling although his may have been more discombobulated with all the capitals, commas, exclamation points, etc.
I actually know what you mean about the Catholic Church. My attraction to The DaVinci Code (the book, not the awful movie) was the idea that a woman may have been an important part at such an early time in it's history. Men-soaked institutions can sometimes benefit from a Venus thought once in a while. But as an argument for Lancia's decline it would need to be further looked at. Besides Adele Lancia ran the firm to some extent once Vincenzo passed away. However the war was only several years away and would probably make difficult a review of her efforts and decisions.
Anyway Italians love complaining about their "fegato" (liver) so you may have a point.
Disclaimer: I am Roman Catholic, of Italian background and enjoy both Huib's and Gamma's postings so no harm done. LOL
As I read your statement three thoughts came to mind;
"Don't bogart that joint my friend, pass it over to me" (a song fron the Easy Rider soundtrack)
We vilified Gamma for rambling although his may have been more discombobulated with all the capitals, commas, exclamation points, etc.
I actually know what you mean about the Catholic Church. My attraction to The DaVinci Code (the book, not the awful movie) was the idea that a woman may have been an important part at such an early time in it's history. Men-soaked institutions can sometimes benefit from a Venus thought once in a while. But as an argument for Lancia's decline it would need to be further looked at. Besides Adele Lancia ran the firm to some extent once Vincenzo passed away. However the war was only several years away and would probably make difficult a review of her efforts and decisions.
Anyway Italians love complaining about their "fegato" (liver) so you may have a point.
Disclaimer: I am Roman Catholic, of Italian background and enjoy both Huib's and Gamma's postings so no harm done. LOL
-
gamma a.i.
- Posts: 888
- Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 14:18
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
Hi everyone: I really enjoyed the last 2 posts>very heady stuff. Hope you did too.
Pls keep it up; even if it slides down to join the rambling-on-my-mind topics.
Ralf, can you sing that Humphrey Bogart song for us;one more time ? or just pass it over again !! (original text)
I've not heard it in ummm, aaah...lets just say "many a year". & besides, I don't smoke (my Fulvia does:)
&
In any case, we, the pitiful few (old Lancia drivers**) (** the rest of the Lancia rusted back into the ground, sort of a natural recycling process; were it not for the paint !) (**old Lancia, not old drivers...although a few of us are beginning to "push-the-age-envelope) (thank you) will have equal-time revenge on TG in April 2010.
The Editor in Chief of Motor Klassik Magazine & of Youngtimer Magazine*** of Germany, Malte Juergens, Office in Stuttgart; Editor of both of thes Magazines, under the Banner of the Motor Presse Group, assured me that there will be "on the spot" coverage of Stuttgart Lancia MM II (Mega Meeting II) in Apr 2010. Location of coverage, with photo-shoot is still tbdetermined.
In German speaking countries "semi-old cars, not yet classifiable as "Collectors Cars / Veteran Cars" are lumped into the ***"Youngtimer" Category. My Gamma are Y'timers; my (& your) Fulvia; Flavia etc isn't.
Having confirmed that coverage, I have also volunteered to write the MM II story, glowing-praises only,
Hosanna on the Highest. Lancia lives
Hosanna for the "old Lancia" that survived all the slings & arrows that usually prevent the vast majority of nice - cars from ever getting so old !
Hosanna for the great folks who love old Lancia, or whatever else old they may show up in; loved them enough to keep them up & running.
To Everyone: If you can't follow my English, try my German !
The MM II story will be written in German; no doubt it will be a rehash of "Car Meeting Stories" I've been writing for "well, ok, quite a few decades now; I will admit !
My German: a sample
"Ik kann, weil (or is it wiel?) ik muessen gewesen sein geworden*.
Gee, that looks like it is written in Dutch.
Or like it has been copied from similar texts (untranslatable into any language) by *Marco T. Wain², about 150 yrs ago, give or take. ²aka *Sammy L. Clemens
More rambling: did you know that the Pope rode in a Gamma ? Especially built for him !
Not the current Pope; he owned a VW Golf II; but his predecessor !
Concerning my manner of writing in my mother-tounge:
I am also copying the "style (or lack there ob) ! I know it is a strange hobby, reading old newspapers, from my Fathers "Mother-Country", from about 100 -120 yrs ago...but I do. Especially 1 particular Author, who wrote, back then... a sort of overall, general Social Sarcastic Caustic Commentary ob the "wee folk of this little island", by attacking everything (& body) who needed attacking & being very funny while doing it.
The name of this column was "Little Brown Jug" ;referring to the earthen-vessel in which "behold, my favorite drink contained therein", from which, it seems, he drank, all day, every day.
Only, in his writings he interrupted his prose, with dozens of (); !!!; .... & blank spaces. Or to draw pictural-explanations, create charts, invent graphs; & sometimes slipping into Latin, French, German or Gaelic...
In these languages the text had nothing to do with anything else he was writing about ! In fact, these texts usually had nothingat all to do with nothing at all.
I get the impression he also copied; a lot; especially the foriegn languages.
Maybe he was paid by the line, or the page.
Sometimes ... on off days...he wrote Poems. Oh Lord, save us (my thoughts).
Actually, being a full-time Government Minister for Life, he didn't get paid a cent for his writings.
Thus, he could write what he wanted, about whom he wanted, in the language that took his fancy. .
When he missed a day of two, there were riots in the streets of Dublin !!; or so he reported
He remained incognito (to no one); signing his works as "the Grand Ol Gent" or "The Sir, d.a.a."
In any case, I am sure his Lancia texts, had he ever written any, would not be far different from Huib's text above. Instead, he wrote about "steam-locomotives",
Today...for fun & because I had to, I wrote the text to a non-automotive technical-manual; very straightforward writing. No jokes. No drawings, no crayon drawn graphs, no Latin, nor French. I wrote it in a language somewhat akin to German. It will be corrected tomorrow; reviewed for final accuracy in 2 days & printed next week. I will not reprint it here. ha ha ha !!!
So, I can write straight forward sentences. When I have to. § I have trouble with
However, but, and when "boys jes wanna have fun" wanna have fun, here, on the Lancia Forum, is one place to do it. It is more fun than sitting in the hotel bar, drinking expensive (& fattening) beer.
Tomorrow, more copying of text...but I will ramble on down to misc-rambling.
Pls keep it up; even if it slides down to join the rambling-on-my-mind topics.
Ralf, can you sing that Humphrey Bogart song for us;one more time ? or just pass it over again !! (original text)
I've not heard it in ummm, aaah...lets just say "many a year". & besides, I don't smoke (my Fulvia does:)
&
In any case, we, the pitiful few (old Lancia drivers**) (** the rest of the Lancia rusted back into the ground, sort of a natural recycling process; were it not for the paint !) (**old Lancia, not old drivers...although a few of us are beginning to "push-the-age-envelope) (thank you) will have equal-time revenge on TG in April 2010.
The Editor in Chief of Motor Klassik Magazine & of Youngtimer Magazine*** of Germany, Malte Juergens, Office in Stuttgart; Editor of both of thes Magazines, under the Banner of the Motor Presse Group, assured me that there will be "on the spot" coverage of Stuttgart Lancia MM II (Mega Meeting II) in Apr 2010. Location of coverage, with photo-shoot is still tbdetermined.
In German speaking countries "semi-old cars, not yet classifiable as "Collectors Cars / Veteran Cars" are lumped into the ***"Youngtimer" Category. My Gamma are Y'timers; my (& your) Fulvia; Flavia etc isn't.
Having confirmed that coverage, I have also volunteered to write the MM II story, glowing-praises only,
Hosanna on the Highest. Lancia lives
Hosanna for the "old Lancia" that survived all the slings & arrows that usually prevent the vast majority of nice - cars from ever getting so old !
Hosanna for the great folks who love old Lancia, or whatever else old they may show up in; loved them enough to keep them up & running.
To Everyone: If you can't follow my English, try my German !
The MM II story will be written in German; no doubt it will be a rehash of "Car Meeting Stories" I've been writing for "well, ok, quite a few decades now; I will admit !
My German: a sample
"Ik kann, weil (or is it wiel?) ik muessen gewesen sein geworden*.
Gee, that looks like it is written in Dutch.
Or like it has been copied from similar texts (untranslatable into any language) by *Marco T. Wain², about 150 yrs ago, give or take. ²aka *Sammy L. Clemens
More rambling: did you know that the Pope rode in a Gamma ? Especially built for him !
Not the current Pope; he owned a VW Golf II; but his predecessor !
Concerning my manner of writing in my mother-tounge:
I am also copying the "style (or lack there ob) ! I know it is a strange hobby, reading old newspapers, from my Fathers "Mother-Country", from about 100 -120 yrs ago...but I do. Especially 1 particular Author, who wrote, back then... a sort of overall, general Social Sarcastic Caustic Commentary ob the "wee folk of this little island", by attacking everything (& body) who needed attacking & being very funny while doing it.
The name of this column was "Little Brown Jug" ;referring to the earthen-vessel in which "behold, my favorite drink contained therein", from which, it seems, he drank, all day, every day.
Only, in his writings he interrupted his prose, with dozens of (); !!!; .... & blank spaces. Or to draw pictural-explanations, create charts, invent graphs; & sometimes slipping into Latin, French, German or Gaelic...
In these languages the text had nothing to do with anything else he was writing about ! In fact, these texts usually had nothingat all to do with nothing at all.
I get the impression he also copied; a lot; especially the foriegn languages.
Maybe he was paid by the line, or the page.
Sometimes ... on off days...he wrote Poems. Oh Lord, save us (my thoughts).
Actually, being a full-time Government Minister for Life, he didn't get paid a cent for his writings.
Thus, he could write what he wanted, about whom he wanted, in the language that took his fancy. .
When he missed a day of two, there were riots in the streets of Dublin !!; or so he reported
He remained incognito (to no one); signing his works as "the Grand Ol Gent" or "The Sir, d.a.a."
In any case, I am sure his Lancia texts, had he ever written any, would not be far different from Huib's text above. Instead, he wrote about "steam-locomotives",
Today...for fun & because I had to, I wrote the text to a non-automotive technical-manual; very straightforward writing. No jokes. No drawings, no crayon drawn graphs, no Latin, nor French. I wrote it in a language somewhat akin to German. It will be corrected tomorrow; reviewed for final accuracy in 2 days & printed next week. I will not reprint it here. ha ha ha !!!
So, I can write straight forward sentences. When I have to. § I have trouble with
However, but, and when "boys jes wanna have fun" wanna have fun, here, on the Lancia Forum, is one place to do it. It is more fun than sitting in the hotel bar, drinking expensive (& fattening) beer.
Tomorrow, more copying of text...but I will ramble on down to misc-rambling.
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
the Lancia Dedra was also very well rust protected...we still have a 1989 model running and it has no rust...mind you, its in Cyprus, but near the seaside, where salty air should have pulverised it if it were not properly protected...
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
Philip, you may well be completely right about the Dedra, but none of these facts has anything to do with Top Gear, which purposely sets out to be as outrageous as it can possibly be. As Neil Cundy correctly points out, it's an entertainment show about cars, and takes neither the cars nor itself seriously. It never lets the facts--about Lancia on anyone else--get in the way of a good joke (or even a mediocre one).
Huib's general point is well taken. Whatever foibles--real or imagined--they pointed out, they called Lancia the greatest marque, and offered some compliments that are simply remarkable in the context of their usual clownery. Most of all, they substantially raised the profile of the marque. IMHO, on balance, the treatment they gave Lancia was much better than the treatment usually accorded by the "mainstream" car shows--utter disregard.
Huib's general point is well taken. Whatever foibles--real or imagined--they pointed out, they called Lancia the greatest marque, and offered some compliments that are simply remarkable in the context of their usual clownery. Most of all, they substantially raised the profile of the marque. IMHO, on balance, the treatment they gave Lancia was much better than the treatment usually accorded by the "mainstream" car shows--utter disregard.
-
lancialulu
- Posts: 244
- Joined: 21 Dec 2008, 19:53
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
See last Sunday when they were quite rightly megadismissive of Audi/BMW/and Range Rover, and while they like the Renault Twingo 133 they still dumped it in the Irish Sea!
Tim
Tim
-
gamma a.i.
- Posts: 888
- Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 14:18
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
seriously now: 2 days ago I was watching a "Nature Program" on TV, in which "properly prepared" body shells of cars were being dumped off the coast of ? I was not paying close attention. To create artificial reefs.
I have owned quite a # of cars that they could have had for free, not only Italo's, had they just asked.
I reread my comments of last night. I went back in & I cleaned-up some sloppy passages. I have now created a far worthier gem of intellectual literature, in the gentlest of terms. Sorry, I won't do it again.
Now, I return to writing a "users manual" for a new coffee machine, that is actually an existing coffee machine in a new housing. How can I convince anyone that the new coffee machine is better than the same coffee machine, in a different housing, was...2 weeks ago.
Oh yes, "bold new design; latest features, 6 speed gearbox, user friendly" ad infini .... just like describing a new Lancia (= an already existent Fiat in a new dress) !!
I have owned quite a # of cars that they could have had for free, not only Italo's, had they just asked.
I reread my comments of last night. I went back in & I cleaned-up some sloppy passages. I have now created a far worthier gem of intellectual literature, in the gentlest of terms. Sorry, I won't do it again.
Now, I return to writing a "users manual" for a new coffee machine, that is actually an existing coffee machine in a new housing. How can I convince anyone that the new coffee machine is better than the same coffee machine, in a different housing, was...2 weeks ago.
Oh yes, "bold new design; latest features, 6 speed gearbox, user friendly" ad infini .... just like describing a new Lancia (= an already existent Fiat in a new dress) !!
-
gamma a.i.
- Posts: 888
- Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 14:18
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
Rapello: I now know something about Rapello.
On 16th April, 1922, representatives of governments Germany ....Soviet Union signed Rapallo Treaty at World Economic Conference in etc......
It never snows there; there is no salt on the roads, but the sun is hot & it is close to the Liguarian Sea; still...why did beautiful little 127's rust so quickly. Ooops, it must have had something to do with the Rapello Treaty...something about trading olive oil & Grappa for high quality soviet-steel
On 16th April, 1922, representatives of governments Germany ....Soviet Union signed Rapallo Treaty at World Economic Conference in etc......
It never snows there; there is no salt on the roads, but the sun is hot & it is close to the Liguarian Sea; still...why did beautiful little 127's rust so quickly. Ooops, it must have had something to do with the Rapello Treaty...something about trading olive oil & Grappa for high quality soviet-steel
Re: BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November
Philip, if you read my post , in the Lancia factory of Chivasso started the galvanizing process all over the vehicles during 1989.