Ignition issues

[ekranoplan]

http://web.me.com/ekranoplan/LUKAFOTORACING/index.html

Any ideas?

Cheers

[ekranoplan]

OK, I think I need to balance the carbs as Nos 1&2 are running a little richer than Nos 3&4.

Plugs actually seem fine and most of that carbon is from idle at shut down.

NGK plugs have HEat ratings - I think the V power ones are 8s and the other slightly colder 9s.

With a better earthing strap and new coil and leads I hope things improve.

Still 3rd from last in serious wet wx at Silverstone 1 Aug 09 was not bad for a first go!

Results here:

CSCC race results

[ekranoplan]

1st Race

Pics now up from first proper race with the Fulvia

Best Regards

[bart]

Hi,

You say that you use a MSD 6AL, driven by the original distributor/points, and also that advance is per original fulvia 1600. Does this mean that you still use the original mechanism with the springs/weights inside the distributor or do you have the timing electronically?

I use the same setup (using the springs) and find that firing is not very steady but varies several degrees. If you look at it with a strobe gun, I don't see a 'white dot' moving back and forth on the flywheel when revving the engine, but rather a white stripe maybe an inch long, moving about on the flywheel. I was thinking of ways to get this better. Maybe one of Huib's 123 ignitions (are they compatible with MSD?), or even a freely programmable unit from MSD. Please let me know if you have any suggestions.

Nice exhaust, by the way!

Bart

[Huib]

I would expect that the 123 drives your unit. It drives a standard coil just as the original points do.

The 123 is not freely programmable by the user. However, there is still room to add some curves in the factory. If someone gives me a useful curve, I can add it. It will be in all following production units. This is the way microprocessor controlled ignitions evolve.

[ekranoplan]

Tx Bart and Huib,

Yes my MSD6AL drives a tacho adaptor and then straight to MSD Blaster SS coil and uses original distributor with springs.

I would like to try Huib's 123 design but need to think about a better curve to suit.

Huib do you have original 1016 curve?

[Huib]

The curves I have are on http://www.viva-lancia.com/fulvia-workshop/ignition/. Click on the thumbnail to enlarge.
As far as I know the dynamic advance of the 1016 is the same as for the standard 1.6HF engine. The fixed advance is 10 degr instead of 8.

[bart]

Huib, ?,

If the 123 ignition works with msd6al, that would be a major improvement, but mainly because the timing is more stable. There are other electronic devices which can control ignition as well as fuel injection (fulvia iniezione!). 'MegaSquirt' is one of those makes, that offer relatively cheap, do it yourself, electronics. Ignition timing can be set as a function of rpm, engine load, engine temp. Most interesting! But no personal experience (yet...). So you can define your own curve and experiment. You can even (temporarily) add a detonation (knock) sensor to find out the optimum. This way you can have very efficient hiway cruising, with lots of advance, yet no high speed knock if you step the pedal!


Below text is from their web site, http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html


To provide improved engine performance, better fuel economy, and reduced exhaust emissions, MegaSquirtII can control spark advance (timing), and this advance is programmable by the user.

For MegaSquirtII (as for most other ignition systems), the total ignition advance is based on three factors:


Total advance = initial advance + RPM based advance + vacuum advance
In particular, MegaSquirtII uses three variables to determine the total advance (called adv_deg).

The first is the relevant value from the engine speed and load table, called ign_table(rpm,kPa), combining the RPM based advance and vacuum advance in one 12x12 table.
The second is the trigger offset (adv_offset in the code), which appears to be roughly equivalent to the initial timing, but is really the difference between the trigger and next TDC in degrees (it is frequently used as the base timing in 'bypass mode' when the module is not connected to the MegaSquirt-II, and also when 'trigger rise' is set as the cranking advance).
And the final value is the cold_adv_deg, an enhancement not available in many ignition systems, which is a 1x10 table based on engine coolant temperature (clt).
Note that you specify the total advance in MegaTune. That is, you calibrate the trigger offset, then put the timing you want in the MegaTune advance table. So if you have calibrated your trigger offset (suppose it is 10°), and want 25° BTDC for the advance, you put 25° in the MegaTune table (not 15° or 35°).

In the code, these factors are in tenths of a degree (1/10°). These values must be positive, so adv_offset sets the minimum amount of advance possible.

In general:

Low MAP (low engine load) = more spark advance
High MAP (high engine load) = less spark advance
Low CLT (cold engine) = more spark advance
High CLT (warm engine) = less spark advance
Low RPM = less spark advance
High RPM = more spark advance
The spark advance table is a 12 by 12 matrix (144 values) based on engine RPM and MAP sensor values. A further table of 10 values is used to make adjustments for engine coolant temperature.


Example Spark Advance Table
[ign_table(rpm,kpa)]

130 0.0 2.0 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 31.0 32.0 32.0
120 0.0 3.0 7.0 11.0 15.0 19.0 23.0 27.0 31.0 32.0 33.0 33.0
110 0.0 4.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 33.0 34.0 34.0
100 0.0 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
90 0.0 8.0 11.0 15.0 19.0 23.0 30.0 33.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
kPa 80 2.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 30.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
70 4.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 30.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
60 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 31.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
50 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
40 8.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 34.0 36.0 38.0 38.0 39.0 40.0
30 8.0 16.0 19.0 23.0 27.0 31.0 34.0 37.0 39.0 40.0 41.0 42.0
20 8.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 34.0 38.0 41.0 44.0 46.0 46.0
500 750 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500
RPM


Spark advance entries in the 12×12 MegaTune spark table are expressed in engine degrees, and can be specified in tenths of a degree (1/10°). Note that they are the actual timing before top dead center (BTDC), and include any trigger offset.



Any feedback on the above is appreciated!

Huib, I found fitting this MSD6AL (second hand on ebay) a major improvement on my 1600. William recommended it and it has transformed the car. Especially low speed torque has immensely improved.

Bart

[Huib]

Very impressive Bart.

However I did the excersize of adapting the 123 for the Fulvia simply because original distributors are no longer available nor are the caps easy to get. Copying the original distributor would have been beyond my possibilities.

My personal interest is to do a million kilometers with my coupe's, reliably and economically. I am now doing better than 15 kilometers per liter of euro 95. I am quite happy with that. It is easy to keep the original ignition in the boot and swap it if the electronics fail. The Fulvia will always take me home.

Keeping two coupe's (one doing 45.000 km per year, the other 10.000 km per year) in top condition keeps me busy enough. I am quite happy with the carbs and the 123 ignition.

I do have a small research and development budget. At the moment it is used for developing tooling to set the exact minimal toe in and other parameters of the rear axle which should further reduce fuel consumption.

[ekranoplan]

Thanks Huib and Bart,

I took my 1600 to a garage that has been operating since the early 1960s. The owner John Lamb used to own one of the first Fanalone RHD cars in the UK.

He spent rather a long time with my car setting up the ignition, carbs and checking valve clearances, head torques etc over a period of two days.

I will publish the results as soon as I can find a scanner.

Suffice to say i now have a very good ignition curve that Huib may like to add to the 123 system.

As for distributor caps I am surviving on Intermotor 44680 ones as used with Fiat 124/131 etc.

Rotor arms are another issue with MSD - my one the resistance filler melts so has to be soldered or another rotor with solid copper strip used.