Dear all,
Unfortunalty I posted this on the heater matrix topic heading so I'll post it here too so I don't make confusion.
I have a GRAF pump Huib but the problem is the seal part no. 2189810. I would like to find the seal otherwise I may have to go for a complete pump made in Outer Mongolia as you said.
I managed to get the bolts that were behind the impeller off. Most of them were very stuck indeed and would not turn. It needed a bolt to be welded onto them before they would come off - rather drastic but it did he job especially since most of the bolts sheared the bolt plug trying to get them off.
Did you say that the GRAF pump is an early one or a late one Huib? The impeller looks ok, a bit rusty but all the blades are all ok the bearing will need changing.
I'll let you know what happens next I'm trying to find the seal if not then it will be a new pump for me. Tomorrow I take off the radiator & heater matrix.
Ttfn
m!
Water Pump
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Huib
Re: Water Pump
As far as I know Graf (www.graf.it) has been supplying the waterpumps for a number of years. Their website has a cross reference listing a number of other manufacturers.
See http://www.graf.it/siti/catalogo/acqua/ ... dice=PA041
It lists 3 types made by Lancia (code OE = original equipment). I wasn't there at the time. If I were boss of Lancia at the time I would have bought waterpumps instead of making them.
Note that when I mentioned Outer Mongolia I was talking about the bearing, not the pump. Graf buys the ball bearings. The brand they use may vary. So far I have only seen bearings without a brand name and some of them without grease.
Taking the pump apart to put an SKF or FAG or NSK bearing as a precaution may be tricky depending on the type of mechanical seal they used and the way the impeller is attached to the spindle. I normally buy 3 pumps if I need one. If it leaks just a bit of coolant after installing it on the engine, it will probably disappear in a about 2000 km.
The flat side on the part of the spindle that goes into the shaft of the sprocket wheel is an oil channel. The shafts of the sprocket wheel need to be lubricated. Oil supply branches off from the artery going to the 1st main bearing and goes to the rear end of the shaft. Through the inside of the shaft it goes to the front side of the shaft. The shaft has holes on both sides.
The spindle of the waterpump which also goes into the shaft has a diameter which is quite a bit smaller than the inside diameter of the shaft. As a result there is quite a loss of oil pressure. The Graf pumps have an O ring to block this loss of oil pressure. This is the main reason I still go for the Graf pumps even in spite of the low quality bearings they use.
Also the quality of the O rings they use is not so very good. I replace the O ring with a Viton O ring. Grease it well when putting the pump on to avoid damage to the O ring.
I have no way of looking into a running engine but I can imagine that oil leaking from between the shaft and the spindle (if there is no O ring) is jetted against the ball bearing as the pressure is 6 bar and cause the waterpump to leak oil.
Same goes for the leakage between the sprocket wheel shaft and its bearing. I hard chrome the shaft and grind it till it has the specified minimum clearance of 0,04 mm. See DT Fulv 01/210
If you take the heater out, take off the hose that goes to the heater from the heater cock first and blow compressed air into it to blow most of the water out of the heater matrix so you don't spill any in the interior when you are practicing your vocabulary of curses when wiggling the heater out.
Very good to do the heater as well. Most say "I only drive the car in summer and don't need the heater". Well, if the owner needs it or not is not my concern. The car may need it at a crucial moment. Switching on the heater has always been an excellent emergency action if the temperature suddenly rises. The hotter the climate the more likely it is you may need the heater for such an emergency. And also I have seen plenty of heater cores which were rusted through causing loss of coolant which then messes up the interior.
Do not forget to replace the heater cock membrane. If it tears your coolant goes to the street. It is a standard membrane use on many Italian cars at the time. Make sure the small disc at the bottom of the spindle of the heater cock turns freely. If not the membrane will tear all the quicker. Note that the small disc goes inside the chamber in the membrane.
See http://www.graf.it/siti/catalogo/acqua/ ... dice=PA041
It lists 3 types made by Lancia (code OE = original equipment). I wasn't there at the time. If I were boss of Lancia at the time I would have bought waterpumps instead of making them.
Note that when I mentioned Outer Mongolia I was talking about the bearing, not the pump. Graf buys the ball bearings. The brand they use may vary. So far I have only seen bearings without a brand name and some of them without grease.
Taking the pump apart to put an SKF or FAG or NSK bearing as a precaution may be tricky depending on the type of mechanical seal they used and the way the impeller is attached to the spindle. I normally buy 3 pumps if I need one. If it leaks just a bit of coolant after installing it on the engine, it will probably disappear in a about 2000 km.
The flat side on the part of the spindle that goes into the shaft of the sprocket wheel is an oil channel. The shafts of the sprocket wheel need to be lubricated. Oil supply branches off from the artery going to the 1st main bearing and goes to the rear end of the shaft. Through the inside of the shaft it goes to the front side of the shaft. The shaft has holes on both sides.
The spindle of the waterpump which also goes into the shaft has a diameter which is quite a bit smaller than the inside diameter of the shaft. As a result there is quite a loss of oil pressure. The Graf pumps have an O ring to block this loss of oil pressure. This is the main reason I still go for the Graf pumps even in spite of the low quality bearings they use.
Also the quality of the O rings they use is not so very good. I replace the O ring with a Viton O ring. Grease it well when putting the pump on to avoid damage to the O ring.
I have no way of looking into a running engine but I can imagine that oil leaking from between the shaft and the spindle (if there is no O ring) is jetted against the ball bearing as the pressure is 6 bar and cause the waterpump to leak oil.
Same goes for the leakage between the sprocket wheel shaft and its bearing. I hard chrome the shaft and grind it till it has the specified minimum clearance of 0,04 mm. See DT Fulv 01/210
If you take the heater out, take off the hose that goes to the heater from the heater cock first and blow compressed air into it to blow most of the water out of the heater matrix so you don't spill any in the interior when you are practicing your vocabulary of curses when wiggling the heater out.
Very good to do the heater as well. Most say "I only drive the car in summer and don't need the heater". Well, if the owner needs it or not is not my concern. The car may need it at a crucial moment. Switching on the heater has always been an excellent emergency action if the temperature suddenly rises. The hotter the climate the more likely it is you may need the heater for such an emergency. And also I have seen plenty of heater cores which were rusted through causing loss of coolant which then messes up the interior.
Do not forget to replace the heater cock membrane. If it tears your coolant goes to the street. It is a standard membrane use on many Italian cars at the time. Make sure the small disc at the bottom of the spindle of the heater cock turns freely. If not the membrane will tear all the quicker. Note that the small disc goes inside the chamber in the membrane.
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m!
Re: Water Pump
Graf or KWP
Which would you recommend as the seal is looking very difficult to find (or steal)
Which would you recommend as the seal is looking very difficult to find (or steal)
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Huib
Re: Water Pump
They are the same. Both KWP and Graf are brand names of Metelli in Cologne - Brescia
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m!
Re: Water Pump
Does that mean they are exactly the same?
I will go for a Graf as I have one already and will be able to use what I have left over. My only concern will then be the replacing the Graf bearing with a better one.
Anyone who has rubbished the Fulvia heater will from now on get a stark rebuff from me from now on!
Why?
Well, as we all know Lancia were famous for their superb design & build quality, their engineering excellence and their flair for ingeniuity, which is why we all love Lancia's so much.
After removal of the air intake under the bonnet and taking a look at the heater element, I quickly figured that Lancia must have built the Fulvia around the heater element. I concluded therefore that it must be one of the most superior quality heater elements ever made and that such a prestigious car manufacturer such as Lancia would have so much faith in just one vehicle part, that it must be an excellent heater.
Anyway, after a very short assessment of the situation, it looks like an inside job so I will have to tackle it after my current problem has been resolved.
Thanks Huib, Jay and Joe. I managed too remove the rad and will take it, no doubt, to a small, family run concern to get it recored.
Will let you know as things progress.
Many thanks
m
I will go for a Graf as I have one already and will be able to use what I have left over. My only concern will then be the replacing the Graf bearing with a better one.
Anyone who has rubbished the Fulvia heater will from now on get a stark rebuff from me from now on!
Why?
Well, as we all know Lancia were famous for their superb design & build quality, their engineering excellence and their flair for ingeniuity, which is why we all love Lancia's so much.
After removal of the air intake under the bonnet and taking a look at the heater element, I quickly figured that Lancia must have built the Fulvia around the heater element. I concluded therefore that it must be one of the most superior quality heater elements ever made and that such a prestigious car manufacturer such as Lancia would have so much faith in just one vehicle part, that it must be an excellent heater.
Anyway, after a very short assessment of the situation, it looks like an inside job so I will have to tackle it after my current problem has been resolved.
Thanks Huib, Jay and Joe. I managed too remove the rad and will take it, no doubt, to a small, family run concern to get it recored.
Will let you know as things progress.
Many thanks
m
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Huib
Re: Water Pump
The heaters were built by Ipra. The material of the core varies. Ipra probably bought the units from small family run companies and bought from whomever quoted a lire less.
Water goes in at the top and goes out at the top. This design guarantees high deposit.
Water goes in at the top and goes out at the top. This design guarantees high deposit.
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Huib
Re: Water Pump
There is nothing you can do if the heater is not out.
The job is not really that difficult. Much easier than on a series 2 and light years easier compared to modern cars
The job is not really that difficult. Much easier than on a series 2 and light years easier compared to modern cars