Hi Guys,
I am busyrebuilding my suspension on my series 1 Fulvia. The question relates to the bushes on the bottom wishbone. the ones I removed have a steel bush inside a plastic insert (badly worn) encased in a rubber mounting. I found wishbones from a series 2 which are completely different in that they don't have the plastic bush. They seem to have a metal bush with an inner metal shaft sandwiched inbetween the rubber. The workshop manual is not very detailed regarding what is correct. 1)Is the plastic insert standard for the series 1? 2) Can I use the series 2 mountings on my series1? 3) What is the best option and what method should be used for fitting either option.
Hope someone can shed some light on this
S1 Front suspension rebuild
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Huib
Re: S1 Front suspension rebuild
The bushes on the S1 as you describe I also call bushes. In principle these are greased things which can rotate 360 degrees with low friction. These were used in the automobile industry till late sixties. They are expensive to make as you can see.
The ones on the S2 I call silent blocs. These consist of an inner steel bush and an outer steel bush with rubber vulcanised between the two bushes. The hinging action is obtained by winding and unwinding the rubber. Movement is restricted to about 15 degrees either way. These are very low cost to manufacture and require no maintenance such as greasing. If the maximum swing of about 15 degrees is exceeded they tear quickly. It is vital that bolts through the silentblocs are torqued with the suspension part right in the center between its maximum and minimum movement.
Lancia had an official conversion set. Note that the bushes use and M18 bolt. The silentblocs use and M14 bolt. You need the M14 bolts from the S2 and precision bushes to convert the 18mm hole in the aluminium tower to a 14 mm hole.
If you appreciate precision steering, the bushes are better. Less rubber and less friction. My opinion about this may be subjective. It probably is.
I machine new all plastic outer bushes with grease grooves out of POM, a very stable plastic, and turn new inner bushes out of steel which are then hardened to 60 RC, ground to with 0,01mm and polished. Expensive but I like to think that it adds a lot to precise steering.
I am about to make a few sets. If you want one, let me know.
If you decide to make them yourself, remember that you must figure on greasing them. Some plastics are known for their self lubricating properties. This is only true for light applications such as the bearings in an electric tooth brush. If used in the suspension of a car it is best to apply grease.
The ones on the S2 I call silent blocs. These consist of an inner steel bush and an outer steel bush with rubber vulcanised between the two bushes. The hinging action is obtained by winding and unwinding the rubber. Movement is restricted to about 15 degrees either way. These are very low cost to manufacture and require no maintenance such as greasing. If the maximum swing of about 15 degrees is exceeded they tear quickly. It is vital that bolts through the silentblocs are torqued with the suspension part right in the center between its maximum and minimum movement.
Lancia had an official conversion set. Note that the bushes use and M18 bolt. The silentblocs use and M14 bolt. You need the M14 bolts from the S2 and precision bushes to convert the 18mm hole in the aluminium tower to a 14 mm hole.
If you appreciate precision steering, the bushes are better. Less rubber and less friction. My opinion about this may be subjective. It probably is.
I machine new all plastic outer bushes with grease grooves out of POM, a very stable plastic, and turn new inner bushes out of steel which are then hardened to 60 RC, ground to with 0,01mm and polished. Expensive but I like to think that it adds a lot to precise steering.
I am about to make a few sets. If you want one, let me know.
If you decide to make them yourself, remember that you must figure on greasing them. Some plastics are known for their self lubricating properties. This is only true for light applications such as the bearings in an electric tooth brush. If used in the suspension of a car it is best to apply grease.
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Phil Laing
Re: S1 Front suspension rebuild
Hi Huib,
Thanks for the informative response. I am working on a very tight budget and our currency is somewhat weaker than the Euro which doesn't help, but I am very interested in buying a set for the lower arms. Please would you let me know:
1) Would this include the rubber mounting as well as the plastic and steel bush?
2) Would I need to modify the holes on the aliminium tower or are these bushes designed for the s1 tower?
3) How much would it cost for a set and could I pay you through paypal as I have for the parts manual?
4) When are you planning to make them?
By the way did you receive my order for the parts manual? (Order placed in my sons name... Sheldon)
Regards
Phil Laing
Thanks for the informative response. I am working on a very tight budget and our currency is somewhat weaker than the Euro which doesn't help, but I am very interested in buying a set for the lower arms. Please would you let me know:
1) Would this include the rubber mounting as well as the plastic and steel bush?
2) Would I need to modify the holes on the aliminium tower or are these bushes designed for the s1 tower?
3) How much would it cost for a set and could I pay you through paypal as I have for the parts manual?
4) When are you planning to make them?
By the way did you receive my order for the parts manual? (Order placed in my sons name... Sheldon)
Regards
Phil Laing
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Huib
Re: S1 Front suspension rebuild
1) The rubber is eliminated. The outer bush is now solid POM. I figure the rubber was there to allow for tolerances in a series production. The POM bushes are "handmade" with high precision. The rubber is not needed. Leaving out the rubber also allows a larger inner diameter and thus larger steel inner bush which lowers the pressure.
2) These bushes are designed for the S1 arms and towers. You use the original M18 bolts with grease nipple. Clean the holes in the arms. Pull the plastic bushes in using the steel bush and a piece of M18 thread with nuts and washers. The steel bushes have thicker flanges to also eliminate the steel washers. They also have grease channels.
3) One set is 175 euro plus postage if participating in next production run. You can pay throug Paypal.
4) I am collecting material. They will be finished by the end of june.
2) These bushes are designed for the S1 arms and towers. You use the original M18 bolts with grease nipple. Clean the holes in the arms. Pull the plastic bushes in using the steel bush and a piece of M18 thread with nuts and washers. The steel bushes have thicker flanges to also eliminate the steel washers. They also have grease channels.
3) One set is 175 euro plus postage if participating in next production run. You can pay throug Paypal.
4) I am collecting material. They will be finished by the end of june.