Yep the same one , all the examples I see here in The Netherlands and that is very few are very poor in their paint finish Orange peel effect is obvious on all. One car that I believe is an indication of how Lancia can build nice cars is what you drive the Lybra is a very impressive car.
Don't worry I am a believer , always have been and always will be. But sometimes you have to look at cold hard facts.
end of the road for Thesis?
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Mark.
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
Have to agree, was in Italy recently and saw a few of them, how on earth they don't sell in greater numbers is beyond me, without doubt the best looking car in its class. I'm only sorry we can't buy them in Ireland anymore
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ryan
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
where are Peugeots and Citroens selling more than Fiats, Lancias, and Alfas. Its pretty much the same situation for both Italian and French cars, as far as I've seen. But its not that bad, its mostly a problem with them not entering the US/Canadian market. You have Fiats in South America, Central America, North America (Mexico), Japan, China, Taiwan, Thailand (and pretty much the rest of Asia), Australia/NZ, South Africa, etc., etc. I think you are coming down a bit hard on them...
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Hardy Walker
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
Ok for starters all throughout Africa Pugs and Renaults are sold everywhere. Australia and New Zealand. Throughout Mainland Europe and Eastern Europe / Middle East and South America. Citroens are built under licence in China. Lancia sales are non existent outside Italy. There total production consists of 90 % Ypsilons which by the way is a great car. But very scary indeed that there hole model range is reliant on one model.
Fiat sales apart from mainland Europe and South America are non existent in the rest of the world.
Fiats are not sold in Australia only Alfa Romeos and they are currently being kicked by the French makes who sell in much bigger numbers.
Don't worry I currently drive 2 Italian cars A Lancia Delta 2 and a AlfaRomeo 156 and have owned Alfa Romeos , Fiats and Lancia. But unless Fiat get their act together with selling vehicles throughout the world and not ignoring key markets their days will be numbered. Not re-entering the USA market with Lancia is a decision that is stupid , the Thesis would actually be a good vehicle to re-enter the USA. 1st it was stopping RHD production for the UK which is a death nell to any maker. What other car maker in the world apart from USA makers only make their vehicles in LHD.
And then we come to the fact of the Lancia Fuliva , come up with a brillant design niche vehicle and then they don't put it into production. I mean the Germans makers must just sit and laugh. Why did BMW retain Mini because they saw a great niche market. Fiat used to be good at this ie Fiat Uno / Fiat Punto and various other Alfas and Lancias but throughout the 90's and to date they have lost the plot. They were the last to market with a Van to compete with the Berlingo. Have good vehicles like the Barchetta which they don't bother with. Fiat Coupe another great car they didn't bother with. Lancia Delta another car they didn't bother with coming up with a replacement. Lancia Lybra another great car they say they are not going to replace.
Please don't take all this the wrong way. I will continue to buy Fiat products but it is because my heart rules my head but not everyone thinks like us!!.
Cheers
Fiat sales apart from mainland Europe and South America are non existent in the rest of the world.
Fiats are not sold in Australia only Alfa Romeos and they are currently being kicked by the French makes who sell in much bigger numbers.
Don't worry I currently drive 2 Italian cars A Lancia Delta 2 and a AlfaRomeo 156 and have owned Alfa Romeos , Fiats and Lancia. But unless Fiat get their act together with selling vehicles throughout the world and not ignoring key markets their days will be numbered. Not re-entering the USA market with Lancia is a decision that is stupid , the Thesis would actually be a good vehicle to re-enter the USA. 1st it was stopping RHD production for the UK which is a death nell to any maker. What other car maker in the world apart from USA makers only make their vehicles in LHD.
And then we come to the fact of the Lancia Fuliva , come up with a brillant design niche vehicle and then they don't put it into production. I mean the Germans makers must just sit and laugh. Why did BMW retain Mini because they saw a great niche market. Fiat used to be good at this ie Fiat Uno / Fiat Punto and various other Alfas and Lancias but throughout the 90's and to date they have lost the plot. They were the last to market with a Van to compete with the Berlingo. Have good vehicles like the Barchetta which they don't bother with. Fiat Coupe another great car they didn't bother with. Lancia Delta another car they didn't bother with coming up with a replacement. Lancia Lybra another great car they say they are not going to replace.
Please don't take all this the wrong way. I will continue to buy Fiat products but it is because my heart rules my head but not everyone thinks like us!!.
Cheers
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Shant Fabricatorian
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
It's important to remember Fiat's financial situation before you guys lay into them.
Now, yes, they got themselves into it, but they are making serious efforts to extricate themselves. It's just a fact of life that money is not a commodity which is in serious supply at Fiat these days, and therefore it certainly isn't abundant at Lancia.
Wait a while. Lancia are currently doing a great job with what they have. When Fiat improves, Lancia will improve along with it. Things are happening at Lancia, but slowly. Sales are markedly improved on last year thanks to the new Ypsilon. This is a lot more than can be said for Alfa whose sales are dropping fast despite having a lot more resources and models at its disposal.
The other thing to remember is that Sergio Marchionne (Fiat Group's CEO) is a bit of a fan of the Lancia marque and reportedly has increased control over Fiat Auto these days, which is a good thing as Demel isn't the most loyal Lancisti the world has ever known. He'd quite like to kill it so having Marchionne there is quite important.
Now, yes, they got themselves into it, but they are making serious efforts to extricate themselves. It's just a fact of life that money is not a commodity which is in serious supply at Fiat these days, and therefore it certainly isn't abundant at Lancia.
Wait a while. Lancia are currently doing a great job with what they have. When Fiat improves, Lancia will improve along with it. Things are happening at Lancia, but slowly. Sales are markedly improved on last year thanks to the new Ypsilon. This is a lot more than can be said for Alfa whose sales are dropping fast despite having a lot more resources and models at its disposal.
The other thing to remember is that Sergio Marchionne (Fiat Group's CEO) is a bit of a fan of the Lancia marque and reportedly has increased control over Fiat Auto these days, which is a good thing as Demel isn't the most loyal Lancisti the world has ever known. He'd quite like to kill it so having Marchionne there is quite important.
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ryan
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
everywhere you mention french cars being sold, there are "Fiats" as well. they sell quite well in China, India, South America (i believe #1 in brazil and argentina), South Africa, Eastern/Western Europe. they may not have the sub saharan market cornered yet.....
ifs the japanese and the koreans who have aggressively tried to sell their cars everywhere. i really don't know how the french can make a good comparison.
anyway.. opinions, opinions.. :]
ifs the japanese and the koreans who have aggressively tried to sell their cars everywhere. i really don't know how the french can make a good comparison.
anyway.. opinions, opinions.. :]
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Randy Adams
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
Ignoring the American market seems like a long term mistake even if it has saved short term profits. But when I think of the incompetent job Fiat did with the Beta, I can see why.
Whereas the Beta compensated longtime European fans of the marque for its Fiat engine by offering a lot of car for a lot less money than a comparable model by the old independent company, the Beta was offered in the U.S. at incredibly high prices--often in excess of comparable BMW models. At the same time, Fiat were too cheap to spend money on developing a proper U.S. spec car which should have had the 2000 engine and fuel injection from the first moment it arrived so as to retain a competitive level of performance and also to enhance its difference from the cheaper Fiats. In 1976, Americans were asked to spend $10,000 on an 83 bhp car with flashy coachwork. For that money you also got weak air conditioning that could not overcome the heat coming through the windows in the 100 degree heat common during the summer in many of the most promising markets for interesting imported cars. You also got the benefits of the Italian industrial unrest of the era--a friend of mine discovered his brand new 1975 Beta coupe came with a sump full of sand at no extra charge! You also got shoddy dealers who did not prepare the cars properly, often never bothering to align the rear wheels, and who charged ludicrous prices for spare parts. We Americans can be very stupid (witness 59 million of us just last week) but there are limits to our stupidity. By 1981, Lancia had sorted the U.S. market cars out but the damage had been done--no one wanted to know anymore.
If Lancia were re-launched now, the company would have to plan on dismal sales for a number of years until the word finally sneaked out that the cars were no longer the disasters that they seemed to be in the 1970s. But this is nothing that Audi did not do. Its 100LS model of the 1970s was another notorious fiasco in the U.S., but little by little the company worked its way out of its hole and is now a huge success here. All of this requires the long view. I see no evidence of a long view at Fiat at any time in the past few decades.
Whereas the Beta compensated longtime European fans of the marque for its Fiat engine by offering a lot of car for a lot less money than a comparable model by the old independent company, the Beta was offered in the U.S. at incredibly high prices--often in excess of comparable BMW models. At the same time, Fiat were too cheap to spend money on developing a proper U.S. spec car which should have had the 2000 engine and fuel injection from the first moment it arrived so as to retain a competitive level of performance and also to enhance its difference from the cheaper Fiats. In 1976, Americans were asked to spend $10,000 on an 83 bhp car with flashy coachwork. For that money you also got weak air conditioning that could not overcome the heat coming through the windows in the 100 degree heat common during the summer in many of the most promising markets for interesting imported cars. You also got the benefits of the Italian industrial unrest of the era--a friend of mine discovered his brand new 1975 Beta coupe came with a sump full of sand at no extra charge! You also got shoddy dealers who did not prepare the cars properly, often never bothering to align the rear wheels, and who charged ludicrous prices for spare parts. We Americans can be very stupid (witness 59 million of us just last week) but there are limits to our stupidity. By 1981, Lancia had sorted the U.S. market cars out but the damage had been done--no one wanted to know anymore.
If Lancia were re-launched now, the company would have to plan on dismal sales for a number of years until the word finally sneaked out that the cars were no longer the disasters that they seemed to be in the 1970s. But this is nothing that Audi did not do. Its 100LS model of the 1970s was another notorious fiasco in the U.S., but little by little the company worked its way out of its hole and is now a huge success here. All of this requires the long view. I see no evidence of a long view at Fiat at any time in the past few decades.
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ryan
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
you make all good points Randy, but you are b*tchin' at things that were done nearly 30 years ago. should we round up all those retired employees rough them up? heh
i believe the US market forgets quickly what happened 30 years ago, much less 3 years ago.
look at Maserati.. everyone thought they'd be dead with the memory of the Biturbo...
if FIAT followed BMW's lead with MINI and started off by selling Nuova Fulvias in the US in select urban areas.. with, yes, all the proper dealerships, mechanics, warranty, marketing and quality control, I bet those cars would be flying out of the dealerships. Follow it up with a Delta III Integrale to make the ricers in their Imprezas/Lancers weep, and we're back.
It will never happen though unless Luca can bust some ****s.
i believe the US market forgets quickly what happened 30 years ago, much less 3 years ago.
look at Maserati.. everyone thought they'd be dead with the memory of the Biturbo...
if FIAT followed BMW's lead with MINI and started off by selling Nuova Fulvias in the US in select urban areas.. with, yes, all the proper dealerships, mechanics, warranty, marketing and quality control, I bet those cars would be flying out of the dealerships. Follow it up with a Delta III Integrale to make the ricers in their Imprezas/Lancers weep, and we're back.
It will never happen though unless Luca can bust some ****s.
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Hardy Walker
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
I agree Randy and Fiat still persist in doing the same. They have yet to develop vehicles sutiable for the Australian market yet apart from Alfa Romeo. Whereas the Peugeot sell approx 5000 vehicles a year in Oz. Fiat neglect to develop their range of vehicles for both RHD and LHD and examples of this are littered throughout their range. The Barchetta for one the old Lancia Delta Intergrale. I am originally from Australia and if you were to buy European you can get a wide variety apart from Italian. And if you do want to buy Alfa Romeo the only ones they import are the fully specced up versions. No base-line versions. With VW / Renault / Citroen / Peugeot you can buy all models. All have been designed for RHD and LHD.
I will say again that I am a current owner and believer in Italian cars. The amount of times I have had to defend them to other people I would be a rich person. But sometimes you have to look at the cold hard facts.
Lets hope it changes in the future with new managers who are marketing and business savvy for the people running Fiat throughout the 90's certainly were not. Could you imagine if you gave a Japanese maker the designing savvy that is present it Italy they certainly wouldn't make a balls up of it like Fiat has
I will say again that I am a current owner and believer in Italian cars. The amount of times I have had to defend them to other people I would be a rich person. But sometimes you have to look at the cold hard facts.
Lets hope it changes in the future with new managers who are marketing and business savvy for the people running Fiat throughout the 90's certainly were not. Could you imagine if you gave a Japanese maker the designing savvy that is present it Italy they certainly wouldn't make a balls up of it like Fiat has
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Randy Adams
Re: end of the road for Thesis?
I'd be interested in what sales figures Maserati has enjoyed in the U.S. lately. I live in Los Angeles, one of the most hospitable markets for a car like the Maserati, and I've seen very few on the road. I don't think people have forgotten the Biturbo at all. The Biturbo sold here in quite large numbers and left a lot of well-heeled car buyers with bad memories. Assuming the new cars are substantially better than the old Biturbo (and I trust this is the case), it will probably be at least several years before the company is able to rebuild a decent reputation. Perhaps Fiat will continue to deem this project worth carrying out. I hope so; the Maserati range seems to be well-conceived.
I agree that the Nuova Fulvia would be a delightful opportunity but unfortunately it will have nothing like the Mini in terms of nostalgic reference here. Extremely few Fulvias were ever sold in the U.S. due to the lack of a real distributor for Lancia back in the 1960s (the old independent company was pretty bad when it came to the U.S. market as well). And the Fulvia never had any of the celebrity association that the Mini enjoyed. Nobody in the U.S. knows what a Lancia Fulvia is. The same is true for the Deltra Integrale reference; nobody will recognize it. To re-launch Lancia in the U.S., the company would need to plan on a long slow slog introducing the Americans to the virtues of the marque. AND they'd have to spend a whole lot of money kitting out dealerships to compete with the established makes. The new Fulvia is a genuinely attractive car that would make new friends on its own terms with no nostalgic association at all. But I don't see much else in the Lancia range that would sell here. The Y is not a viable product in a country drunk on artificially cheap gasoline. The Lybra looks like it's a pretty good car but aesthetically it is not in the same league as the middle class cars being offered by the Germans and Japanese. And I must confess that the Thesis looks far too similar to the bloated top-of-the-line Hyundai (XG 300, or something like that) to lure many buyers away from BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti and Acura.
I agree that the Nuova Fulvia would be a delightful opportunity but unfortunately it will have nothing like the Mini in terms of nostalgic reference here. Extremely few Fulvias were ever sold in the U.S. due to the lack of a real distributor for Lancia back in the 1960s (the old independent company was pretty bad when it came to the U.S. market as well). And the Fulvia never had any of the celebrity association that the Mini enjoyed. Nobody in the U.S. knows what a Lancia Fulvia is. The same is true for the Deltra Integrale reference; nobody will recognize it. To re-launch Lancia in the U.S., the company would need to plan on a long slow slog introducing the Americans to the virtues of the marque. AND they'd have to spend a whole lot of money kitting out dealerships to compete with the established makes. The new Fulvia is a genuinely attractive car that would make new friends on its own terms with no nostalgic association at all. But I don't see much else in the Lancia range that would sell here. The Y is not a viable product in a country drunk on artificially cheap gasoline. The Lybra looks like it's a pretty good car but aesthetically it is not in the same league as the middle class cars being offered by the Germans and Japanese. And I must confess that the Thesis looks far too similar to the bloated top-of-the-line Hyundai (XG 300, or something like that) to lure many buyers away from BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti and Acura.