Very interesting, William. I have the same situation, discussed in an earlier thread. In my case, someone left the 4 speed 'hump' in place, but cut a crude hole for the 5 speed extension. Then they tack-welded on a 5 speed tunnel.
My interest in engine removal is because I think this would be the easiest way to get at the clutch and gearbox. I imagine with the engine out, it would be possible to pull the gearbox and bellhousing forward, after removing the gear lever of course.
Peter
oil spray nozzle gone
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Huib
Re: 90 minute tips
Yes. I know the problem. Fortunately I have absolutely no desire to change the wonderful 4 speed gearboxes in my S1 coupes to the horrible 5 speed gearboxes of the S2 and even less desire, if that is still possible, to part with the leva lunga, the long shift stick which is typical for the 60's Flavia and Fulvia.
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Huib
Re: 5 speed in a 4 speed body
You can get to the clutch.
Pulling the gearbox forward may not be possible. It has to be tilted sideways to pull it forward under the member holding the spring. You would also have to remove the central track rod. The tilting may not be possible with the linkage still on the gearbox. Options are to also remove the lower cross members of the subframe.
Most practical might be to just drop de whole subframe
Pulling the gearbox forward may not be possible. It has to be tilted sideways to pull it forward under the member holding the spring. You would also have to remove the central track rod. The tilting may not be possible with the linkage still on the gearbox. Options are to also remove the lower cross members of the subframe.
Most practical might be to just drop de whole subframe
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Peter de Wit
Re: 90 minute tips
Nice tip on lowering the box Huib!
I changed my box a couple of times. And did it the hard way: up and out the engine bay!! Meaning engine out first. Reason: the famous 4-2-1 one piece exhaust manifold, sometimes refered to as gr4 manifold. Nice piece and what people know is that you need to take out the engine to mount it in your car. But I also found that you need to take it out again if you want to get the gearbox out from the underside. Meaning engine has to go (again...).
I changed my box a couple of times. And did it the hard way: up and out the engine bay!! Meaning engine out first. Reason: the famous 4-2-1 one piece exhaust manifold, sometimes refered to as gr4 manifold. Nice piece and what people know is that you need to take out the engine to mount it in your car. But I also found that you need to take it out again if you want to get the gearbox out from the underside. Meaning engine has to go (again...).
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Peter de Wit
Re: 5 speed in a 4 speed body
Peter, Huib is correct: you have to get rid on the central steering rod to pull the box into the engine compartment. And I have always undone the 4 bolts for the linkage before pulling it forward. You need small hands. I am quite sure I have it fixed with 2 bolts now or so for this reason.....
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: 5 speed in a 4 speed body
My own car has a five speed box, the car being a 1967 coupé.
I removed the original "tunnel" and fitted one cut from a written-off S3.
However, I hvae extended the extension - it is about a foot or so longer than original so that I can have a shorter gear lever and thus reduce the exceesive travel when changing gears.
To remove my subframe is slightly tricky necessitating raising the body a little, roll forward, raise the body a little, roll forward and so on until the assembly is clear.
I would add that I would only remove the gearbox having first removed the subframe - any other approach is just misery.
For clutch engine out every time - it's so easy.
Paul
I removed the original "tunnel" and fitted one cut from a written-off S3.
However, I hvae extended the extension - it is about a foot or so longer than original so that I can have a shorter gear lever and thus reduce the exceesive travel when changing gears.
To remove my subframe is slightly tricky necessitating raising the body a little, roll forward, raise the body a little, roll forward and so on until the assembly is clear.
I would add that I would only remove the gearbox having first removed the subframe - any other approach is just misery.
For clutch engine out every time - it's so easy.
Paul
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: 90 minute tips
I am surprised that the myth of the horrid five-speed box still circulates.
It is entirely true that there are a lot of horrid five-speeds around, but if you have a decent one they can be quite pleasant, but actually pathetic compared with many modern gearboxes which are so slick to use - I was driving a 15-year-old Honda today and apart from a little slack in the lever linkage the 'box was superb - light, fast, unbeatable synchromesh.
The problem I think originated when the cars were new. When oil is cold, second gear especially can be difficult to engage so I think that people used to use too much force instead of double declutching as I used to do when I had such a five-speed (no need on my present box).
I recall another five-speed that was horrifd when changing into third. We dismantled it and because one can see how it operates, we saw straightaway that the centre selector fork was not parallel in its synchro hub. Rectification was a simple matter of mounting the fork in the vice and clouting with a BIG hammer. A couple of attempts, re-assembly and the 'box was a sweet as a nut. (Justin will remember this one).
Paul
It is entirely true that there are a lot of horrid five-speeds around, but if you have a decent one they can be quite pleasant, but actually pathetic compared with many modern gearboxes which are so slick to use - I was driving a 15-year-old Honda today and apart from a little slack in the lever linkage the 'box was superb - light, fast, unbeatable synchromesh.
The problem I think originated when the cars were new. When oil is cold, second gear especially can be difficult to engage so I think that people used to use too much force instead of double declutching as I used to do when I had such a five-speed (no need on my present box).
I recall another five-speed that was horrifd when changing into third. We dismantled it and because one can see how it operates, we saw straightaway that the centre selector fork was not parallel in its synchro hub. Rectification was a simple matter of mounting the fork in the vice and clouting with a BIG hammer. A couple of attempts, re-assembly and the 'box was a sweet as a nut. (Justin will remember this one).
Paul
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: 90 minute tips
Peter,
Of course I don't know exactly which Gr IV manifold you have, but I have the same problem with my own manifold which you might remember I made. This runs over the driveshaft. To remove it, I take off the cylinder head, unbolt the LH engine mount and jack up the engine...
But then I took the view "How often do I need to remove it?"
Paul
Of course I don't know exactly which Gr IV manifold you have, but I have the same problem with my own manifold which you might remember I made. This runs over the driveshaft. To remove it, I take off the cylinder head, unbolt the LH engine mount and jack up the engine...
But then I took the view "How often do I need to remove it?"
Paul
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Huib
Re: 90 minute tips
Well, Paul, I compare the 5 speed box with the Fulvia 4 speed box of course. The 5 speed things is certainly better than most gearboxes which are in the far north east corner, in Alaska so to speak, and are connected to the stick with rubber bands.
I have now finished one gearbox (the other soon) with some extra work on the select yoke. The shaft part was ground till completely round again. Then hard chromed to 14,1 mm. Then ground again to 13,97 mm and polished. I insterted new bushes in the half case and line honed them to 14,00 mm. Shifts very very smoothly on the test bench! I still have to finish the engine and put everyhting in the car till I can try it for real. I can hardly wait
Did you ever try ATF in the gearbox? I hear from some people it really improves shifting a lot. I haven't tried it myself. Part gearbox oil, part ATF also seems to make a big difference already.
I have now finished one gearbox (the other soon) with some extra work on the select yoke. The shaft part was ground till completely round again. Then hard chromed to 14,1 mm. Then ground again to 13,97 mm and polished. I insterted new bushes in the half case and line honed them to 14,00 mm. Shifts very very smoothly on the test bench! I still have to finish the engine and put everyhting in the car till I can try it for real. I can hardly wait
Did you ever try ATF in the gearbox? I hear from some people it really improves shifting a lot. I haven't tried it myself. Part gearbox oil, part ATF also seems to make a big difference already.
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: 90 minute tips
Huib,
No I haven't triedATF, but I am quite prepared to believe that it would work - except of course one has to consider the crownwheel and pinion. Does ATF have the necessary extreme pressure qualities for the dreaded hypoid I wonder?
Certainly I have used thinner synthetic gear oils and found an improvement especially from cold, and I'll bet that there is an improvement in the ratio of power in to power out!
Paul
No I haven't triedATF, but I am quite prepared to believe that it would work - except of course one has to consider the crownwheel and pinion. Does ATF have the necessary extreme pressure qualities for the dreaded hypoid I wonder?
Certainly I have used thinner synthetic gear oils and found an improvement especially from cold, and I'll bet that there is an improvement in the ratio of power in to power out!
Paul