I want to rust proof my series 1 Fulvia. It is the first time I will be doing it and I would like some help and tips as to what to do and what to look out for to fully rustproof my car.
I'd also like to know if possible is what the best products to use how much I will need to use what to use and where to put it all.
If anyone can give me a guide how to fully rust proof my series 1 (or any other Fulvia for that matter) then I would be most grateful.
Thank you all for your help
Stephano
Rust-proofing
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Huib
Re: Rust-proofing
Small question, big answer.
Depends what its condition is and how far you want to go.
A simple job means you drill 10mm holes at the right spots in the bottoms of the sills and subframe and put in wax. I use the good old Valvoline Tectyl ML fo the cavities. It mixes very well wih Owatrol Oil which also stops rust and penetrates like nothing else.
The other extreme is to drop the subframe, take out /off interior, all windows, rubbers, carpets etc etc. Of course also scrape off the underbody coating. This HAS to come off. The drill the holes in subframe, sills, the members under the hood, the cavity of the rubber bumper stop at the rear, members under the boot and rear seat, rear sping supports etc etc. Push the pin securing the casting at the end of the rear axle partly out . Then spray all those cavities. First with a mixture of Owatrol and ML, then with ML. Don't forget the A (very complicated structure under the skin), B (top is hollow) and C (double or triple cavities) pillers and the sides of the roof.
You know which method you have to do.
I know which method you are going to choose.
Depends what its condition is and how far you want to go.
A simple job means you drill 10mm holes at the right spots in the bottoms of the sills and subframe and put in wax. I use the good old Valvoline Tectyl ML fo the cavities. It mixes very well wih Owatrol Oil which also stops rust and penetrates like nothing else.
The other extreme is to drop the subframe, take out /off interior, all windows, rubbers, carpets etc etc. Of course also scrape off the underbody coating. This HAS to come off. The drill the holes in subframe, sills, the members under the hood, the cavity of the rubber bumper stop at the rear, members under the boot and rear seat, rear sping supports etc etc. Push the pin securing the casting at the end of the rear axle partly out . Then spray all those cavities. First with a mixture of Owatrol and ML, then with ML. Don't forget the A (very complicated structure under the skin), B (top is hollow) and C (double or triple cavities) pillers and the sides of the roof.
You know which method you have to do.
I know which method you are going to choose.
-
Neil Cundy
Re: Rust-proofing
Following on from Huib's comments you could consider passivation. Not only do you want to stop rust, you need to kill the rust that is already present. Not so easy without major stripping but results in some areas could be achieved without too much effort. This site www.rust.co.uk is quite informative about various products, and have been helpful with my queries. I have stripped my car to a bare shell and will be killing and passivating everywhere.
As Huib rightly says the base of the A pillars, where they meet the front bulkhead are extremely important as they pass the forces from the front suspension via the bulkhead into the roof (the roof, front and rear bulkheads and the sills form the cage that reacts all forces).
As well treat the seams, in the engine bay, where the wings and top suspension mounting are mated, and the seams around the rear wheel arches. Rust eating into the seams is what kills a bodyshell, rust on the outer panels is generally cosmetic (albeit not cheap to repair), as it cannot be rectified without taking the shell to bits, rendering it uneconomic.
Hope this helps
Neil
As Huib rightly says the base of the A pillars, where they meet the front bulkhead are extremely important as they pass the forces from the front suspension via the bulkhead into the roof (the roof, front and rear bulkheads and the sills form the cage that reacts all forces).
As well treat the seams, in the engine bay, where the wings and top suspension mounting are mated, and the seams around the rear wheel arches. Rust eating into the seams is what kills a bodyshell, rust on the outer panels is generally cosmetic (albeit not cheap to repair), as it cannot be rectified without taking the shell to bits, rendering it uneconomic.
Hope this helps
Neil
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Stephano
Re: Rust-proofing
Thank you Huib
The condition of the car is very good condition with no visisble signs of rust apart from a few bubbles on the roof and some rust appearing in the bottom corner where the doors hinge are. The car was kept most of its life in a garage so is in good condition.
S.
The condition of the car is very good condition with no visisble signs of rust apart from a few bubbles on the roof and some rust appearing in the bottom corner where the doors hinge are. The car was kept most of its life in a garage so is in good condition.
S.
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Stephano
Re: Rust-proofing
yes thank you it will
All infomation will help onthis and would be helpful to other Fulvia owners as well I'm sure
S.
All infomation will help onthis and would be helpful to other Fulvia owners as well I'm sure
S.
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Huib
Re: Rust-proofing
The fact that you (and many others) are asking the question how to rust proof a 40 year old Fulvia is the result of a miracle. Most cars of that age already ceased to exist many years ago.
A masochist friend of mine is in BMW's of the same age as our Fulvia's. He finds good looking cars in Germany. Buys them. Invariably discovers that there are at least three outer sills over each other, usually riveted. Most of the other steel is only double. New sections riveted over the rusty original panels. Filler. Paint.
Some argue that the fact that many Fulvia's are still pretty good after 40 years is not the result of a miracle but the result of good quality. Also true. They overlook however the fact that the good quality is the real miracle.
I use duplo systems on my own cars. Zinc plating of all parts, then a black 2 part epoxy to protect the zinc. Surfacer EP which is an etching epoxy primer on the body to protect the steel. Then over the filler a polyester layer. Owatrol oil in the sills and other cavities. Then an ML layer to protect the Owatrol. Although I also use the cars through winter I figure the duplo system is enough since I inspect the car regularly.
We are now finishing the restoration of a car where I went for triple and quadruple systems. Initially the car came in for sills repair and rustproofing. Looked like a nice car. After taking the paint from the sills it turned out that new outer sill sections had been taped over the rusted original sill using paper tape. After dropping the subframe it turned out to have quite a few holes. Also the part under the grille was bad, only visible from the engine bay. We then stripped the car and took it to the blaster. When it came back it was a sieve. Even the bottom of the tray where the petrol filler is had disappeared. After 250 hours of welding (not counting the welding of the subframe) it is now ready to go to the blaster again for a light re-blast and the Surfacer.
All subframe, suspension and other parts have been nickle chrome blasted, zinc plated, 2 part epoxy primer and 2 part black PVC paint. When the car is assembled I will add a wax layer on the suspension parts and subframe.
I know the owner. He often goes abroad for a couple of years. Then calls me after a few months because he suddenly remembers he has a Fulvia which he left somewhere outside in a remote village and asks me to pick it up. When I get there, no Fulvia. One of the kids has used it and left it somewhere else. Usually under bad trees. For this type of owner I think even a duplo system is not enough.
One can't very well put wobbly side panels back on the car. So, there is a visit to the upholstery shop. Well, two visits. One to bring the stuff, one to pick it up. The roof lining was brittle. Also needed to be replaced.
The callipers were very dirty and rusted. After disassembly none of the pistons was without damage. So I had to machine new pistons, blast the callipers, then nickle and zinc plate them.
The gearbox was the dirtiest I have ever seen. The seal on the drive shaft had leaked massively. When I took the clutch housing off to replace the seal I noticed a layer of tar inside the gearbox. It probably never had an oil change after it left the factory. I took it apart. After a few hours in the dishwasher all parts came out like new! Teeth, bearings all in excellent condition. Only the syncro's of 2 and 4 needed replacing.
After taking the tires off the wheels to have the wheels powder coated I noticed the youngest one was from 1994. They all went into the container.
The heater core weighed as if it was solid rock. Sure enough. After opening all channels were blocked solid. I then re-inspecte the radiator which initially looked ok. Now I discovered that it had received a new core not too long ago, but a cheap one with insufficient cooling capacity for a Fulvia when it wants to go to its country of birth in summer. New core for the radiator.
I mention only few of the parts. Similar stories are valid for almost all parts of the car. I still have to pick up the door handles and other parts from the chrome shop. I bet the M4 studs on the handles have disappeared in one of the galvanic baths.
And, if the body shell comes back from the paintshop it will go on a spit so I can rotate it during the Owatrol and ML treatments.
Rustproofing can be fun.
On the other hand, Elena the 1967 coupe I have been using as a daily driver for 4 years only had a basic ML treatment in 2001 and minor sill repair after I bought her in Italy in 1999. She will be stripped though after I finish restoration of her sister Celestina in a few more months.
Anyway I will take some pictures of the bottom of the sills and subframe and mark the holes that have to be drilled. This has to be done anyway whether you will strip the car or not.
A masochist friend of mine is in BMW's of the same age as our Fulvia's. He finds good looking cars in Germany. Buys them. Invariably discovers that there are at least three outer sills over each other, usually riveted. Most of the other steel is only double. New sections riveted over the rusty original panels. Filler. Paint.
Some argue that the fact that many Fulvia's are still pretty good after 40 years is not the result of a miracle but the result of good quality. Also true. They overlook however the fact that the good quality is the real miracle.
I use duplo systems on my own cars. Zinc plating of all parts, then a black 2 part epoxy to protect the zinc. Surfacer EP which is an etching epoxy primer on the body to protect the steel. Then over the filler a polyester layer. Owatrol oil in the sills and other cavities. Then an ML layer to protect the Owatrol. Although I also use the cars through winter I figure the duplo system is enough since I inspect the car regularly.
We are now finishing the restoration of a car where I went for triple and quadruple systems. Initially the car came in for sills repair and rustproofing. Looked like a nice car. After taking the paint from the sills it turned out that new outer sill sections had been taped over the rusted original sill using paper tape. After dropping the subframe it turned out to have quite a few holes. Also the part under the grille was bad, only visible from the engine bay. We then stripped the car and took it to the blaster. When it came back it was a sieve. Even the bottom of the tray where the petrol filler is had disappeared. After 250 hours of welding (not counting the welding of the subframe) it is now ready to go to the blaster again for a light re-blast and the Surfacer.
All subframe, suspension and other parts have been nickle chrome blasted, zinc plated, 2 part epoxy primer and 2 part black PVC paint. When the car is assembled I will add a wax layer on the suspension parts and subframe.
I know the owner. He often goes abroad for a couple of years. Then calls me after a few months because he suddenly remembers he has a Fulvia which he left somewhere outside in a remote village and asks me to pick it up. When I get there, no Fulvia. One of the kids has used it and left it somewhere else. Usually under bad trees. For this type of owner I think even a duplo system is not enough.
One can't very well put wobbly side panels back on the car. So, there is a visit to the upholstery shop. Well, two visits. One to bring the stuff, one to pick it up. The roof lining was brittle. Also needed to be replaced.
The callipers were very dirty and rusted. After disassembly none of the pistons was without damage. So I had to machine new pistons, blast the callipers, then nickle and zinc plate them.
The gearbox was the dirtiest I have ever seen. The seal on the drive shaft had leaked massively. When I took the clutch housing off to replace the seal I noticed a layer of tar inside the gearbox. It probably never had an oil change after it left the factory. I took it apart. After a few hours in the dishwasher all parts came out like new! Teeth, bearings all in excellent condition. Only the syncro's of 2 and 4 needed replacing.
After taking the tires off the wheels to have the wheels powder coated I noticed the youngest one was from 1994. They all went into the container.
The heater core weighed as if it was solid rock. Sure enough. After opening all channels were blocked solid. I then re-inspecte the radiator which initially looked ok. Now I discovered that it had received a new core not too long ago, but a cheap one with insufficient cooling capacity for a Fulvia when it wants to go to its country of birth in summer. New core for the radiator.
I mention only few of the parts. Similar stories are valid for almost all parts of the car. I still have to pick up the door handles and other parts from the chrome shop. I bet the M4 studs on the handles have disappeared in one of the galvanic baths.
And, if the body shell comes back from the paintshop it will go on a spit so I can rotate it during the Owatrol and ML treatments.
Rustproofing can be fun.
On the other hand, Elena the 1967 coupe I have been using as a daily driver for 4 years only had a basic ML treatment in 2001 and minor sill repair after I bought her in Italy in 1999. She will be stripped though after I finish restoration of her sister Celestina in a few more months.
Anyway I will take some pictures of the bottom of the sills and subframe and mark the holes that have to be drilled. This has to be done anyway whether you will strip the car or not.
-
Stephano
Re: Rust-proofing
Thanks for all the advice so far.
I have decided to follow Neils advice and go with the Dinotrol method of passifier, wax & underbody seal from rust.co.uk since I may also find it difficult to find all the products that you use Huib in time nor will I be able to be a thorough as you and this product seems to be very good place to start (and continue) rust prevention.
What I would like to know is where are ‘the right places’ are to put the holes/product for the sills A/B/C pillars, subframe, the cavity of the rubber bumper stop at the rear, members under the boot and rear seat, rear spring supports etc etc. & anywhere else without going to an extreme right now. I would like to do a full job and drop the subframe but this might??? be a job for the future and (I hope) something that is not needed at this time. Or something that is to be done as an ongoing project with the anti rust care of my Fulvia.
I've read elsewhere on this site that there are holes near the firewall in the engine compartment and in the boot are a couple of holes for the sections behind the rear wheels. What sections will these holes cover? Where else will I need to do?
Neil mentioned not to neglect the seams. How I would go about this job? If you could give me some details on this Neil I would be very grateful.
If it would be possible to have some diagrams or good explaination as to where to put all the holes/product needed to do a good job without going to an extreme at this time would be very helpful. Without having a Fulvia expert around at the time I don’t know all the places to look out for or to do when doing the job. One day I’d love to leave the car with you Huib as you seem to love Fulvias more than me. In the meantime I will make a post again once I’m with the car and can have a closer inspection myself what needs to be done and where and I’ll ask for advice when I know the full story.
Just to let you know if I haven’t mentioned it already the car is a series 1 Fulvia
Thanks ever so much to all the helpful people here. I wish you all many more happy decades of Fulvia motoring
I have decided to follow Neils advice and go with the Dinotrol method of passifier, wax & underbody seal from rust.co.uk since I may also find it difficult to find all the products that you use Huib in time nor will I be able to be a thorough as you and this product seems to be very good place to start (and continue) rust prevention.
What I would like to know is where are ‘the right places’ are to put the holes/product for the sills A/B/C pillars, subframe, the cavity of the rubber bumper stop at the rear, members under the boot and rear seat, rear spring supports etc etc. & anywhere else without going to an extreme right now. I would like to do a full job and drop the subframe but this might??? be a job for the future and (I hope) something that is not needed at this time. Or something that is to be done as an ongoing project with the anti rust care of my Fulvia.
I've read elsewhere on this site that there are holes near the firewall in the engine compartment and in the boot are a couple of holes for the sections behind the rear wheels. What sections will these holes cover? Where else will I need to do?
Neil mentioned not to neglect the seams. How I would go about this job? If you could give me some details on this Neil I would be very grateful.
If it would be possible to have some diagrams or good explaination as to where to put all the holes/product needed to do a good job without going to an extreme at this time would be very helpful. Without having a Fulvia expert around at the time I don’t know all the places to look out for or to do when doing the job. One day I’d love to leave the car with you Huib as you seem to love Fulvias more than me. In the meantime I will make a post again once I’m with the car and can have a closer inspection myself what needs to be done and where and I’ll ask for advice when I know the full story.
Just to let you know if I haven’t mentioned it already the car is a series 1 Fulvia
Thanks ever so much to all the helpful people here. I wish you all many more happy decades of Fulvia motoring
-
Huib
Re: Rust-proofing
Sorry, I forgot to take pictures of the holes. I have a bare body ready to go for re-blasting and then the paint shop (waiting for dry weather). It is easy to take the pictures which I will then add to the Q&A.
Here in Holland is a Dinitrol station which does an excellent job and knows where to drill holes. I have seen cars done by them and it is as good as humanly possible without a complete strip down. Since it would be impossible for them to have learned where to put the holes themselves (it took me several years) I figure Dinitrol does have it documented somewhere. They do not drill holes in the bottom of the sills by the way. Some years ago I also avoided open holes in the bottom of the sills and took out the carpets to drill holes on the inside. However, it is impossible to hermetically seal the sills to guarantee no water nor air will come in. The second best solution is then to make sure that if water comes in, it goes out quickly. Also a yearly repeat treatment is easy when the holes in the bottom are open.
On an S1 it is relatively easy to drop the subframe. There is often rust under the rubbers and it makes it easier to work on the parts under and over the grill. These horizontal surfaces are often rusted at the underside which is difficult to spot and impossible to work on when everything is in place.
Also the underbody coating has to come off from the wheel arches and the bottom. It is a lot of work. I use a small carpenters chisel. Soaking it in petrol helps. Also the spray cans with tar dissolver work relatively well, but these are expensive. The bitumen based underbody coating is a strong layer which will have come loose in many places. Because of cracks water will collect behind it. From the outside it may look like you have a solid car, while underneath the coating it is rusting like crazy. The story is that that type of coating was invented in England. When the English car industry discovered it was no good, they exported it and sold it to Lancia.
I strongly recommend to take the seats out, the side panels, the carpets and above all the under carpet.
Also you have to make sure the car is water tight. If any water comes in through windshield rubbers, boot lid rubber or wherever there is no way you are going to win the battle. Leakage through the front windshield rubber ends up in the front floor pans. So drive the car some time without the carpets.
Leakage through the rubber of the rear window is sneakier. Because of the curvature of the window, the leakage is at the corners. Water then drips down in the seam between inner wheel arch and wing and ends up in the sill. The leakage is difficult to spot until it is too late.
In the barn next to mine is a guy working on Deux Cheveaux's and Citroen HY vans. The Deux Cheveaux guys have perfected the art of keeping and driving a car at less then half a penny a mile. They use boiled flax oil (I hope my translation into English is correct) for rust proofing. It is an excellent product and cheap enough to fill up the sills with it. Plug all holes in the bottom and fill the sills through a hole in the top. After some hours pull the plugs from the bottom holes and collect the oil and put it back in the bottle. The flax oil smells a bit though, specially on hot days.
Also used engine oil is an excellent product for rust proofing. Before I got my own barn, I worked at the auto hobby club at the nearby air force base. The old guys there who already drove cars before the war invariably put the old oil after an oil change on the bottom of their cars.
Another excellent product, probably the best, is rifle oil. The oil soldiers use to oil their guns.
I wonder what medieval soldiers and knights used on their body armour. When I visit an old castle there often is body armour supposedly from the 12th century. They are all bare metal and look almost like new, certainly a whole lot better than most 40 year old cars. I wonder what was used to rust proof these. On the other hand borders between countries here in Europe were often the result of soldiers not wanting to go further because they feared their armour would rust if they did.
Here in Holland is a Dinitrol station which does an excellent job and knows where to drill holes. I have seen cars done by them and it is as good as humanly possible without a complete strip down. Since it would be impossible for them to have learned where to put the holes themselves (it took me several years) I figure Dinitrol does have it documented somewhere. They do not drill holes in the bottom of the sills by the way. Some years ago I also avoided open holes in the bottom of the sills and took out the carpets to drill holes on the inside. However, it is impossible to hermetically seal the sills to guarantee no water nor air will come in. The second best solution is then to make sure that if water comes in, it goes out quickly. Also a yearly repeat treatment is easy when the holes in the bottom are open.
On an S1 it is relatively easy to drop the subframe. There is often rust under the rubbers and it makes it easier to work on the parts under and over the grill. These horizontal surfaces are often rusted at the underside which is difficult to spot and impossible to work on when everything is in place.
Also the underbody coating has to come off from the wheel arches and the bottom. It is a lot of work. I use a small carpenters chisel. Soaking it in petrol helps. Also the spray cans with tar dissolver work relatively well, but these are expensive. The bitumen based underbody coating is a strong layer which will have come loose in many places. Because of cracks water will collect behind it. From the outside it may look like you have a solid car, while underneath the coating it is rusting like crazy. The story is that that type of coating was invented in England. When the English car industry discovered it was no good, they exported it and sold it to Lancia.
I strongly recommend to take the seats out, the side panels, the carpets and above all the under carpet.
Also you have to make sure the car is water tight. If any water comes in through windshield rubbers, boot lid rubber or wherever there is no way you are going to win the battle. Leakage through the front windshield rubber ends up in the front floor pans. So drive the car some time without the carpets.
Leakage through the rubber of the rear window is sneakier. Because of the curvature of the window, the leakage is at the corners. Water then drips down in the seam between inner wheel arch and wing and ends up in the sill. The leakage is difficult to spot until it is too late.
In the barn next to mine is a guy working on Deux Cheveaux's and Citroen HY vans. The Deux Cheveaux guys have perfected the art of keeping and driving a car at less then half a penny a mile. They use boiled flax oil (I hope my translation into English is correct) for rust proofing. It is an excellent product and cheap enough to fill up the sills with it. Plug all holes in the bottom and fill the sills through a hole in the top. After some hours pull the plugs from the bottom holes and collect the oil and put it back in the bottle. The flax oil smells a bit though, specially on hot days.
Also used engine oil is an excellent product for rust proofing. Before I got my own barn, I worked at the auto hobby club at the nearby air force base. The old guys there who already drove cars before the war invariably put the old oil after an oil change on the bottom of their cars.
Another excellent product, probably the best, is rifle oil. The oil soldiers use to oil their guns.
I wonder what medieval soldiers and knights used on their body armour. When I visit an old castle there often is body armour supposedly from the 12th century. They are all bare metal and look almost like new, certainly a whole lot better than most 40 year old cars. I wonder what was used to rust proof these. On the other hand borders between countries here in Europe were often the result of soldiers not wanting to go further because they feared their armour would rust if they did.
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neil
Re: Rust-proofing
Are you in the UK ? We have two cars at the bare shell stage at the moment, mine at the complete bare bodyshell stage awaiting new sills (S1 1600) and my brothers at the bare structure stage, no wings or valances (S2 1300). I have some pictures on http://geocities.com/neil.cundy@btinter ... index.html which show typlical corrosion along the rear window bottom rebate (as Huib mentioned). I shall put some more up showing some of the other areas that both I and Huib have mentioned. If you are in the UK you are welcome to contact me and have a look.
Regards
Neil
Regards
Neil
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Neil
Re: Rust-proofing
Stephano,
I have put some photos up of a stripped shell which should help with your thoughts (http://geocities.com/neil.cundy@btinter ... index.html ). If you have more questions or I have not been particularly clear let me know.
Neil
I have put some photos up of a stripped shell which should help with your thoughts (http://geocities.com/neil.cundy@btinter ... index.html ). If you have more questions or I have not been particularly clear let me know.
Neil