I've noticed that I have to crank the engine for quite a while before it fires, after it's been standing overnight. Today I checked the float bowls and they were almost empty -- of course they fill up after the engine's been running.
Is this normal evaporation, or do I have a leak somewhere? No obvious smell of gasoline, although I do see some seepage around the float cover gasket.
Peter
Emptying float bowls
-
Huib
Re: Emptying float bowls
They should not be empty after one night. If a Fulvia is used daily, it should fire at first spark.
If it has been standing for a week, you may need some cranking.
Leakage is the only thing I can think of.
Where is the seepage? If it is near the rear (towards the engine) of the carb, it may indicate you have blocked pump jets.
If it has been standing for a week, you may need some cranking.
Leakage is the only thing I can think of.
Where is the seepage? If it is near the rear (towards the engine) of the carb, it may indicate you have blocked pump jets.
-
Tony Kovacevic
Re: Emptying float bowls
I had a very similar problem with my Fulvia 2C a few years ago. The problem was a worn jet which was allowing the fuel to drip out of of the carburettor and into the engine. A new jet fixed that particular problem.
-
Peter Cripps
Re: Emptying float bowls
Thanks for the replies.
The seepage I mentioned is from the gasket between the float bowl cover and the rest of the carb. After further thought, I don't think it's the reason for emptying bowls, because the fuel level is below this gasket.
The accelerator pumps appear to be working OK. I can see a squirt of fuel when I look down the barrels and pull on the throttle lever. Also, the car does respond very well when I floor the accelerator pedal.
One other possible clue: even if I fill the float bowls, cold starting is not good. I wonder if the choke (cold start) system is working properly -- it makes a hissing noise when I pull the lever, but it doesn't seem to produce an enriched mixture. The engine still coughs and splutters until it's warmed up.
There is a large bill for 'carb rebuild' in the previous owner file, but I suspect the work wasn't done properly. For a start, there's that wood splinter I found in the idle jet, as reported in an earlier thread!
Thanks again for the help.
Peter
The seepage I mentioned is from the gasket between the float bowl cover and the rest of the carb. After further thought, I don't think it's the reason for emptying bowls, because the fuel level is below this gasket.
The accelerator pumps appear to be working OK. I can see a squirt of fuel when I look down the barrels and pull on the throttle lever. Also, the car does respond very well when I floor the accelerator pedal.
One other possible clue: even if I fill the float bowls, cold starting is not good. I wonder if the choke (cold start) system is working properly -- it makes a hissing noise when I pull the lever, but it doesn't seem to produce an enriched mixture. The engine still coughs and splutters until it's warmed up.
There is a large bill for 'carb rebuild' in the previous owner file, but I suspect the work wasn't done properly. For a start, there's that wood splinter I found in the idle jet, as reported in an earlier thread!
Thanks again for the help.
Peter
-
Huib
Re: Emptying float bowls
OK. I thought you had actually lifted the covers and looked into the float bowls. Other wise my first diagnosis for bad starting would have been bad contact breakers.
If a reasonably current Fulvia suddenly has a starting problem the first thing to look at are the points.
If you have a dwell meter, you can do a quick first check by measuring dwell angle. It should be about 55 degrees.
The choke does make a hissing sound. I never use it but use the accelerator pumps by pumping the pedal. The pumps do not work the last part of the throttle movement. No need to loose energy and time to push the pedal all the way down. Quick short pushes on the pedal do the trick. Some do 3 pumps before turning the key. However, once you get the proper movement in your right leg turning the key at exactly the right moment during the first pump on the pedal is enough in most cases. Only when it is very cold, you need a few extra pumps.
If a reasonably current Fulvia suddenly has a starting problem the first thing to look at are the points.
If you have a dwell meter, you can do a quick first check by measuring dwell angle. It should be about 55 degrees.
The choke does make a hissing sound. I never use it but use the accelerator pumps by pumping the pedal. The pumps do not work the last part of the throttle movement. No need to loose energy and time to push the pedal all the way down. Quick short pushes on the pedal do the trick. Some do 3 pumps before turning the key. However, once you get the proper movement in your right leg turning the key at exactly the right moment during the first pump on the pedal is enough in most cases. Only when it is very cold, you need a few extra pumps.
-
Peter Cripps
Re: Emptying float bowls
Huib, thanks.
Sorry for the confusion, but I *have* looked inside the float bowls ...
Let's step back for a moment and start again ...
The symptoms are that I have to crank and crank before the engine fires after the car has been standing overnight. Even when it fires, it coughs and splutters until it's warmed up. Pulling the choke lever doesn't improve matters, although I do get a hissing noise.
I checked float bowl level after the car had been running and it looked OK. Then I checked again the next morning and both bowls were almost empty. I filled them up by pouring fuel in directly, put the covers back on, and then the engine fired instantly. But it still coughed and spluttered until warm.
Once warmed up, the engine fires immediately and idles smoothly. Plugs are a reasonably even brown color. Points are gapped correctly and dwell is OK. Ignition and cam timing are also OK.
I suspect I'll have to start taking the carbs apart to see if there's anything obviously wrong. But I'd rather not do that if there's some other simple answer that I can't see!
Peter
Sorry for the confusion, but I *have* looked inside the float bowls ...
Let's step back for a moment and start again ...
The symptoms are that I have to crank and crank before the engine fires after the car has been standing overnight. Even when it fires, it coughs and splutters until it's warmed up. Pulling the choke lever doesn't improve matters, although I do get a hissing noise.
I checked float bowl level after the car had been running and it looked OK. Then I checked again the next morning and both bowls were almost empty. I filled them up by pouring fuel in directly, put the covers back on, and then the engine fired instantly. But it still coughed and spluttered until warm.
Once warmed up, the engine fires immediately and idles smoothly. Plugs are a reasonably even brown color. Points are gapped correctly and dwell is OK. Ignition and cam timing are also OK.
I suspect I'll have to start taking the carbs apart to see if there's anything obviously wrong. But I'd rather not do that if there's some other simple answer that I can't see!
Peter
-
Randy Adams
Re: Emptying float bowls
I ran into a problem on two of my single carb Flaminias that might be relevant here. Yes, I realize that the carburetors are completely different.
On the Flams I found that fuel was dribbling ever so slowly into the barrels through the accelerator pump even when NO action was exerted on the throttle lever at all. I found that there was insufficient free travel on the accelerator actuation lever. This is not officially adjustable on the PAAI carbs but the installation of some washers as shims eliminated the problem. The Fulvia carburetors have adjustable accelerator pump levers. I wonder if they are incorrectly adjusted and always allowing some fuel into the choke barrels. This will empty the float chambers while the car is parked. It will also give a constantly over-rich mixture which the motor might be particularly unable to mask when still below optimum running temperature. Unfortunately I am not aware of any way to adjust these levers with the carbs in position as they are located on the underside of the carburetor bodies. Perhaps Huib has a secret.
On the Flams I found that fuel was dribbling ever so slowly into the barrels through the accelerator pump even when NO action was exerted on the throttle lever at all. I found that there was insufficient free travel on the accelerator actuation lever. This is not officially adjustable on the PAAI carbs but the installation of some washers as shims eliminated the problem. The Fulvia carburetors have adjustable accelerator pump levers. I wonder if they are incorrectly adjusted and always allowing some fuel into the choke barrels. This will empty the float chambers while the car is parked. It will also give a constantly over-rich mixture which the motor might be particularly unable to mask when still below optimum running temperature. Unfortunately I am not aware of any way to adjust these levers with the carbs in position as they are located on the underside of the carburetor bodies. Perhaps Huib has a secret.
-
Huib
Re: Emptying float bowls
There is no trick to adjust the accelerator levers. Peccato as our Italians friends say. The carbs have to come off. I think there is a very old thread about the adjustment. I don't see at the moment how fuel could siphon from the pump chamber into the barrel. But I will think a bit more about it. What could be is that the carb is assembled wrongly and the valves between pump and pump jet don't work.
If you lift the cover, you will see two brass plugs in holes in the wall of the float bowl near the rear of the carb.The plugs should have O rings. I am at home now and all my parts are in the barn a few km's away. I don't remember if there should be 1 or 2 O rings per plug, but you will see it of you take them out.
Below each plug is a weight, a small steel rod. Below each weight is a steel ball. Often the steel balls get lost if the carb is taken apart by someone who does not know this type of carb.
The basics are very simple. If there is a mixture, compression and a spark, it should run.
I usually start with the easiest, which is a compression test.
Then the ignition. I always replace condensor and write the date on the new one. Some say these have to be replaced every two years.
Then feel the centrifugale advance mechanism. Often there are the wrong springs. On older Fulvia's the spindle shaft extends a bit above the metal plate with the two pins for the springs which require a hole in the bottom of the rotor. Many new rotors do not have that hole. Consequently the rotor does not move freely when the advance mechanism tries to advance the rotor.
Note that there is a very small hole in the plate on which the points and condensor are mounted. It reads 0170 next to it. If you rotate your head 180 degrees it suddenly reads OLIO which is italian for oil. You should put oil in the hole.
Spark plugs should be NGK BP7ES or BPR7ES gapped at 0,6 to 0,7mm.
Then the mixture. Before you take te carbs apart, it is wise to measure fuel pressure. The Gunson pressure gauge costs about 25USD. One of my best value for money investments. In the Technical Data book which is on our CD's you can find the pressure that is needed for your carb. Usually it is 0,3 to 0,35 bar for the Solexes.
Flip the throttle by hand to operate the accelerator pump to simulate a higher fuel consumption at higher speeds. The pressure should remain constant. Filters (there is one in the bottom of the tank) or fuel lines may be partially blocked or the pump may be bad. Most new replacement pumps I have seen give 0,2 bar or even less which is not enough. You have to disassemble the pump and put washers under the spring till your pressure is ok.
Some Fulvia's have a glass fuel filter. This has a pressure regulator in the top. These are often stuck. I always take them out and put a plastic filter in front of the pump and if necessary a regulator after the pump.
If you lift the cover, you will see two brass plugs in holes in the wall of the float bowl near the rear of the carb.The plugs should have O rings. I am at home now and all my parts are in the barn a few km's away. I don't remember if there should be 1 or 2 O rings per plug, but you will see it of you take them out.
Below each plug is a weight, a small steel rod. Below each weight is a steel ball. Often the steel balls get lost if the carb is taken apart by someone who does not know this type of carb.
The basics are very simple. If there is a mixture, compression and a spark, it should run.
I usually start with the easiest, which is a compression test.
Then the ignition. I always replace condensor and write the date on the new one. Some say these have to be replaced every two years.
Then feel the centrifugale advance mechanism. Often there are the wrong springs. On older Fulvia's the spindle shaft extends a bit above the metal plate with the two pins for the springs which require a hole in the bottom of the rotor. Many new rotors do not have that hole. Consequently the rotor does not move freely when the advance mechanism tries to advance the rotor.
Note that there is a very small hole in the plate on which the points and condensor are mounted. It reads 0170 next to it. If you rotate your head 180 degrees it suddenly reads OLIO which is italian for oil. You should put oil in the hole.
Spark plugs should be NGK BP7ES or BPR7ES gapped at 0,6 to 0,7mm.
Then the mixture. Before you take te carbs apart, it is wise to measure fuel pressure. The Gunson pressure gauge costs about 25USD. One of my best value for money investments. In the Technical Data book which is on our CD's you can find the pressure that is needed for your carb. Usually it is 0,3 to 0,35 bar for the Solexes.
Flip the throttle by hand to operate the accelerator pump to simulate a higher fuel consumption at higher speeds. The pressure should remain constant. Filters (there is one in the bottom of the tank) or fuel lines may be partially blocked or the pump may be bad. Most new replacement pumps I have seen give 0,2 bar or even less which is not enough. You have to disassemble the pump and put washers under the spring till your pressure is ok.
Some Fulvia's have a glass fuel filter. This has a pressure regulator in the top. These are often stuck. I always take them out and put a plastic filter in front of the pump and if necessary a regulator after the pump.
-
Peter Cripps
Re: Emptying float bowls
All comments much appreciated!
Huib, I checked the plugs you described and the balls are there. Although I don't see how this could cause fuel to leak into the carb. (I think you said the same thing.)
It may be that we're thinking too hard about the leakage problem. I felt under the carbs it was wet with fuel! Maybe it's something as simple as a bad pump chamber gasket ...
Clearly I need to take the carbs off and inspect. Not sure when I'll get to this but I'll report back.
Thanks again for all the help.
Peter
Huib, I checked the plugs you described and the balls are there. Although I don't see how this could cause fuel to leak into the carb. (I think you said the same thing.)
It may be that we're thinking too hard about the leakage problem. I felt under the carbs it was wet with fuel! Maybe it's something as simple as a bad pump chamber gasket ...
Clearly I need to take the carbs off and inspect. Not sure when I'll get to this but I'll report back.
Thanks again for all the help.
Peter
-
Huib
Re: Emptying float bowls
Or the membrane itself, which serves as bottom of the carb, may be bad.
When reassembling it is vital that you make sure all surfaces are flat. Often the parts get bent a little. Use the standard procedure, sanding paper on a piece of glass.
On the italian Fulvia forum there is a recent thread started by Carlo Stella about the membranes. He found that the original membranes are not suitable for unleaded. I have never seen that problem, so I can't comment.
When reassembling it is vital that you make sure all surfaces are flat. Often the parts get bent a little. Use the standard procedure, sanding paper on a piece of glass.
On the italian Fulvia forum there is a recent thread started by Carlo Stella about the membranes. He found that the original membranes are not suitable for unleaded. I have never seen that problem, so I can't comment.