EVEN ITALIANS DO NOT DRIVE ITALIAN

[Ryan]

If you break up the Fiat Group the only difference is that the brands will become parts of other super groups. The "breeds" will not return as we knew them, these brands will just become part of GM,
Toyota, VW, etc. Its all fine and dandy to remember the good ole' days, but it doesn't change
modern marketplace reality.

You can dislike Fiat, but this group still produces more cars that I would like to own than any other
super group. What would I want from GM? Maybe the SAAB 9-3? From Ford? Maybe... a Focus
RS, from Toyota... can't think of anything at the moment. With Fiat you can quickly pop off models
from a Fiat Punto HGT, to Alfa's 147, 156, GTV, etc., to the Maserati Coupé and Ferrari 360 Modena.
And just think about the future products coming: Lancia Fulvia, Stratos, Delta III, Alfa 158, Brera, etc.,
etc.

[Boggie]

Can anyone comment on why should or should n't I buy a Lancia H.P. Executive 1600 -1984?
Cost EUR 1,200

[Stephen Norton]

I am a true appreciator of the Lancia Marque and its history of engineering development (second to none in the history of the car) but, living in England, I haven't owned a new(ish) Lancia for 5 years (last one was a Dedra - I now own an Alfa 166 - a beautiful but not very reliable car). I also haven't owned an older Lancia for even longer (I sold my Beta Coupe 2000ie - wonderful, fierce and vastly underrated sports coupe 7 years ago). However I would still like, when finances are right, to own a classic, pre-Fiat Lancia.

I am also a qualified engineer acting on a freelance basis currently in the automotive industry (I am designing an IP (a 'dashboard') for a British manufacturer at the moment).

1. Lancia's Specific Problem - Marque Direction

Note what I say - a pre-Fiat Lancia - not a new one. I believe some of Lancia's current problems started when Fiat took over - there was no alternative unfortunately to this event - the company would no longer exist as a maker of distinct automobiles - can anybody imagine what a Ford Scorpio Flaminia Ghia Special Edition would look like?

However, I think its main recent problems developed from Fiat's takeover of Alfa Romeo - Lancia then seemed to loose its direction - it couldn't be a sporting marque producing in house competition to Alfa and yet, due to the commonality of componentry with other Fiat models, it couldn't really break into the lower exec/luxury end (Audi/BMW etc).

Alfa has been more successful in recent years producing beautiful, character drenched sports cars that Joe Public can use as his daily drive. Part of this success is surely due to the move away from generic Fiat components and also because the name Alfa Romeo now conjures up a very specific image to the British motoring public. Lancia's image? - a differently bodied Fiat with a more luxurious trim.

If Fiat wants Lancia successful, it should look partly at Audi for guidance. In a way, Audis are basically differently bodied Volkswagens with a more luxurious trim. Why are they successful? It certainly can't be due to chassis refinement or reliability or being a decent drive - most Audis have none of those characteristics. Quality? - well put together but so is that other Volkswagen in drag - the Skoda Octavia (and the Seat Leon and all the rest).

What is the answer? Part of this must be the fact that Audi is the technology leader of the Volkswagen group. This can be divided into 2 halves:1. Audi is seen by the general public as being the new technology arm (aluminium spaceframes and the rest) of the Volkswagen group;2. Audis always get the next generation floorpans, engines, gearboxes etc. before their Volkswagen equivalents.

Incidentally, Seat, the Volkswagen 'Alfa Romeo' equivalent is not as successful as Alfa Romeo - perhaps Lancia should look to its brother marque to see what it is doing right!

2. The Italian Motor Industry's General Problem.

In a word RELIABILITY!!! I see this as being the underlying factor in true quality. What does it matter if you can say your panel gaps are small and regular if you you have catastrophic mechanical failure just after your car has gone outside its 3 year warranty (a friend'd Audi TT and, regretably, my own Alfa166), or you have to leave your car in regularily to have some part replaced under warranty.

My own thought is that Volkswagen, for example, may be living on borrowed time - its reputation for quality is excellent - its reputation for reliability is going downhill - the public will catch on.

Unfortunately, it is still much better than the Fiat group's.

Now, imagine if you will an Alfa 156 with the perceived reliability of a Toyota Avensis or Honda Accord. Imagine if all the owner's stories you heard were 'hasn't given a problem in seven years of ownership' and 'the service outlet is so professional - once I leave it in I just know it will be perfect when I pick it up'. I suspect these aren't comments you'll often hear from a Fiat/Lancia/Alfa Romeo owner at the moment.

3. The New Lancia Fulvia.

First point - Lancia must produce this car - beautiful but very individual and visually has some of the characteristics of the original. The aluminium body/light weight could be a major marketing advantage.

Second point - I don't mind that it has most of the mechanicals of the Fiat Barchetta, after all the brilliant Peugeot 205 GTI had a similar suspension arrangement - but the devil was in the detail - Lancia should use bespoke secondary suspension components - special bushes/steering rack etc. to give a truly original feel. No traction control - good.

Third Point - not so sure about the engine though - largish/low tune? I believe the best engine to suit the car's character would be a small (

[Hermann]

High Stephen,

You are dead right...however there is some light at the end of the tunnel (at least on paper):

The new COE of Fiat is an ex-Audi man, Mr. Herb. Demel...


Hope and see...

Hermann

[Shant Fabricatorian]

Stephen, you have it absolutely spot on.

I do like the idea of reducing Lancia's production to only niche models. It does seem at least to be a potentially viable option which is better than the current situation because Lancia's range is absolutely not viable at the moment and Fiat already has a good lead in this area, notably in the space-frame construction of the Multipla and Stilo. This allows lots of variation with minimal tooling-up costs, and the idea will underpin all brand-new Fiat Group products. Perhaps it's too much to ask for completely different engines and transmissions to other Fiat Group products, but they don't really need to be - different cams, pistons and transmission internals can give cars a unique feel.

Other advantages to the small production run philosophy is that Lancia can concentrate on products that will actually sell. I'm still not quite sure if I like the new Fulvia or not - have to see it in the flesh - but while plans aren't actually in place to put it in production yet, Fiat has had offers from both Bertone and Zagato, amongst others, to build the car in low volumes, like the Alfa GTV and Spider. This car has had an outstanding reception with a lot of people saying that they would be ready to sign deposit cheques now. There is a small possibility that this car will still be built but the odds are against it. Personally I think it is very important it is built, if only to restore some sort of credibility to the marque which has, let's be honest, taken a supreme battering over the last decade.

The Thesis is an excellent car but is also the sort of car which lots of people admire but absolutely no-one buys. Lancia is apparently losing a shed-load of money on every one sold. There's nothing really wrong with it - the styling isn't to all tastes, perhaps, but there are enough people out there who like it - but I guess that poor marketing means that people in this class just buy a default-choice BMW or Merc instead. So we have a more fundamental question - what will it take to convince buyers that Lancia is a premium brand?

Conventional wisdom has it that the world will eventually belong to premium brands, as more and more people trade in their Mondeos and Vectras in favour of 3-Series and A4s. For that reason, it is worth Fiat's while not only keeping Lancia alive, but pumping money and resources into it so that it can be perceived as prestige and take advantage of this changing market trend.

The presence of Alfa Romeo in the Fiat Group is probably the biggest problem, though, for the reasons which Steven outlines. Perversely, though it is also one which could potentially be sorted if Lancia were relaunched into the absolute top-end of the marketplace with the small production run idea, producing niche models like the new Fulvia and Stratos, and possibly the new Integrale, and leaving the mass-market 'executive' cars (how I hate that term) to Alfa. The other potential fix is if Fiat sells Alfa Romeo. This is possible given that it has a few suitors and Fiat is still in trouble, though its situation is steadily improving. In this instance, the complete lack of interest in Lancia currently from the other mass-market manufacturers could work in its favour. If Alfa was sold (bringing in money, whereas because no-one is interested in Lancia it's essentially worthless in terms of capital), then Lancia could be relaunched into the segment of the market which Alfa occupied. In truth, this is where I see the Delta replacement heading in any case. My sources indicate all models will have full-time four-wheel drive and two-litre turbocharged in-line five cylinders (based on the Lybra unit). Of course it will have highly specified interiors and options, but the technical specification does indicate a sporting bent, don't you think? I believe it has to, competing as it will with not only the 148 but Audi's A3 (ostensibly a sporting car), BMW's 3-Series Compact (or its replacement), and the like.

The tragedy is that this is exactly the position Lancia was in thirty years ago with the Beta. As the owner of a 1981 2-litre HPE, I can confirm it has superb dynamics, combining great handling with good performance, in addition to looking superb and very distinctive. Yet it was also successfully marketed as a classy executive car against BMW's original 3-Series and (for example) the Saab 900. Then, with the twin problems of the rust debacle and the purchase of Alfa, the Fiat executives didn't really know what to do with Lancia. Alfa is easily definable - sportscars, great styling, high performance. This happens to be what the 90s demanded. Hence, it had a lot of resources poured into it at Lancia's expense. Trouble is, the rust debacle burnt up a lot of Lancia's brand equity and having to share parts with Fiats meant it couldn't compete in its traditional area, right up there with top-class Benzes and so on. So it was difficult to define what Lancia actually meant to the modern buyer. Fiat executives decided that since Fiat was 'bread-and-butter' cars, and Alfa was orientated towards the 'sporting', Lancia is obviously the 'luxury' arm of the group. Fine, only the aforementioned diluted brand equity was a big handicap, plus the fact that Fiat simply didn't give enough resources to Lancia for it to be able to develop cars which could seriously compete on equal terms.

Even now, the problem remains. Because Alfa sales slid in 2003, against Fiat's predictions which saw them rising, there has been a panic and resources are being diverted from Lancia towards Alfa's new models, as well as to upgrade the sales and aftersales network. In the pecking order heirarchy, the order goes Fiat, then Alfa Romeo, the LCV, then finally Lancia. You can see how this is not exactly beneficial, especially when resources are still strained and losses are still being racked up. But if they aren't going to take Lancia seriously as a mass-market manufacturer, perhaps a niche-model approach would be best.

Another problem is the hopeless European dealer network. It is in an appalling state and fixing this is a priority at the moment - despite this fact, it is going to take between 5-10 years. RHD is absolutely not a priority, although Lancia has been carrying out a feasibility study into supplying LHD Ypsilons to a couple of dealers in the south of the UK in tiny numbers. However nothing is yet settled. As a side-note, the recent Brussels Motor Show saw a bodykitted Ypsilon which shows the way towards an HF version. To be built with both petrol and diesel engines, the diesel will be a turbocharged 100bhp version of the much-acclaimed 1.3 16V Multijet, while the petrol will probably be a 110-115bhp version of the new 1.4 FIRE seen in the Panda Abarth. It will possibly be unveiled at Geneva in March.

The new Ypsilon seems to have got off to a decent enough start in terms of sales, but on its own this car is not going to provide Lancia with the volumes it needs to survive in the long-term and the new C-segment car is still three years away. Giancarlo Boschetti, who only recently retired as head of Fiat Auto, took the stance that Fiat have already invested the money in Lancia so they might as well try to get some of it back. This is all very well but it doesn't exactly bode well for future investment plans. The trouble is that Herbert Demel (the new boss of Fiat Auto) is reported to not favour the brand and at present is considering the future, pending review.

I think the situation boils down to this. If the Ypsilon sells well, then Lancia stays alive. If it doesn't, I think there's a good chance that Fiat will cancel all programmes under development, slowly kill off the remaining models, and that will be that. The reception to the new Medea, which is supposed to borrow styling cues from the Maserati Buran concept car, will be critically important. Lancia simply cannot afford to get this car wrong. If it has enough resources, it shouldn't do, and while Alfa being sold off (possibly to GM, seeing as they will now be sharing engines and transmissions) would be bad news for them, it's potentially the best thing which could happen for Lancia. In a best-case scenario, we could see a multi-car lineup in a few years, encompassing the Ypsilon, Nea (upmarket Fiat Idea MPV), Stilnovo (the Delta successor), Medea, Thesis and Phedra, the newly-launched models of which should embody the twin aims of sportiness and luxury/prestige which would have been taken over from Alfa. In fact, there isn't really any reason why it shouldn't happen now, apart from Fiat managers.

[Jacob]

It appears to me that Alfa is the only branch of FIAT that is making some money and FIAT has done a tremendous job (especially with the 156) at making good quality desirable Alfas.
Don't blame Alfa for what is happening to Lancia !!

I put the blame on some serious FIAT mistakes, such as the post-1995 Delta and the complete
lack of a Integrale follow-up. Lancia could easily have an icon car selling more that Subaru Impreza,
even if they had kept the old-mechanical setup and redesigned the exterior-interior.
But they didn't... the 1995 delta was a just a bravo/a

The it was the Kappa... a car too little, too late.... and the coupe version... anyone knows
exactly how many Kappa 2-door they managed to sell ???

The Y was ok-ish... but it was too small.... the new Ypsilon is a very stylish car that is selling well.

I don't think it was Alfas fault... they could have invested the same amount of money, but with
more wise decisions and they could be a lot better.

I've heard that the main reason GM bought a piece of FIAT was bringing the Alfa-Romeo to the
States and the South American market, where FIAT does well. I doubt that FIAT would sell Alfa
to GM.. then they would be left with nothing....