Hi there,
Does anyone know how to tell if the variant 1016 engine was fitted to their 1.6 (Fanalone) originally or not? I'm also wondering if there any other identifying features that make it easy to find out, without having to take the engine apart or how to tell if 1016 modifications were made later to the car? Does anyone know where the part numbers could be found on the parts in question? I have seen that are are numbers on the side of the crankcase (818.540. 2264689) thats only two numbers away from the competition use pistons in the Lancia Parts Catalogue. I have also read that Lancia homologated the 1st 500 or so (maybe even 610) with the Variant engine for group 4. Does anyone know how true this is?
Thanks to all of you who respond to my question. M.
Variant 1016
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william van der Sman
Re: Variant 1016
To determine if an engine is built to variante 1016 spec one has only to look at the flywheelcover were the engine number is stamped. If it is a variante 1016 then: VAR 1016 is also stamped there. Since engine numbers can be faked you can also stamp VAR 1016 on the cover of an ordinairy 818.540. So this is no 100% proof. As is known from the books the first 500 examples should have this stamping and should have serial numbers from 1 to 500. The works used engines till 1972 randomly picked from the line and tuned to 1016 spec or better at the compition department.
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Neil
Re: Variant 1016
Not sure about the first 500 having the 1016 engine fitted. Mine is number 462 and never had a 1016 engine fitted, so I think in typical Lancia fashion production specs of the homolgation cars should be treated with a pinch of salt.
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: Variant 1016
The only Fulvia I have ever seen with VAR 1016 stamped on its flywheel cover is No 14 the famous Munari/Manucci car that won the '72 Monte.
I did correspond with a chap in Norway who has one, but I doubt if there were really 600 - odd produced!
Paul
I did correspond with a chap in Norway who has one, but I doubt if there were really 600 - odd produced!
Paul
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Pete
Re: Variant 1016
I understand from a good Lancia source that you could request a variant 1016 when new but only before the Fiat takeover in 1969. I was also told that a very high percentage of the S1 1600 cars RHD and LHD were to Lusso spec with more trim and standard tune engine making the genuine variant 1016 cars few and far between.
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mortuza
Re: Variant 1016
The ever so elusive variante 1016.
Thank you everybody for responding to this interesting and mysterious matter. I think Sherlock Holmes would have had problems with this one! but perhaps with your help we can get down to it more.
I have read in Wim Oude De Weernink's book that engines supplied by the factory came with the additional stamp VAR 1016 on the flywheel. But I have only ever read it there. I also read that Lancia homologated the Variante 1016 for FIA purposes and had to produce a minimum of 500 for Group 4. I believe that 1st 610 engines were thus homologated for Group 4 and should have been Variante.
I must say I don't have all the books (yet!) but even the great Itailan book by Enzo Altorio ( I would reccomend this book just for the pictures) makes very little mention of 1016 and this book has a more complete story of HF Fulvia than De Weernink's book. The only reference I can in Altorio's book find is that the 1016 is 'famous and mysterious' (p.177) and leaves it there! Maybe I have missed it. I do understand a little Italian and with the help of a dictionary get by well. Brian Long's book Racing Lancia's only had a paragraph on it!
So what I'd like to know is, has anybody else seen this stamp? (a real stamp not one put on after) perhaps on a works engine or Jolly club motor or even someone else who ordered it so. It would be interesting to find out how many witnesses there are to Weermink's assertion. Or maybe somebody 'in the know'?
Another point I'd like to ask, if anyone can help is, I understand that options could have been ordered or even made after delivery and I'm sure that a few people who had a 1.6HF would have asked for this option or bought it after market. How can I easily tell if any of the options have been put on my engine? I would assume that one of the easiest would be to take the cylinder head cover off and look at the cams. But where would I look and what would I look for? What about the pistons, where are the markings on them? (when I take the cylinder head off). The person that I bought the car from ( and raced it a little) was as mysterious as the 1016.
On point I'd like to clear up as well is what is the relevance of the numbers 818.540. 2264689 on the side of the block. I have looked in the spare parts catalogue and seen that the closest number to it 818.540. 2264683 +0.005 pistons which is an option for sporting use. I beleive that Lancia did most of their numberings in series like their chassis numbers. Can anyone deciper this for me and do series 2, 1.6HF's have this marking on them. Also, can anyone tell me what classe A, B, C, D mean in the spare parts catalogue Table 6A under the various pistons they have in them.
Well thats quite a lot there, I hope there is someone who can help and even add to this most wonerful mystery. It would be nice to keep this debate open, if only to help others who may come across this mystery.
Thanks very much to everybody who has helped me so far
Mortuza
Pete wrote:
>
> I understand from a good Lancia source that you could
> request a variant 1016 when new but only before the Fiat
> takeover in 1969. I was also told that a very high percentage
> of the S1 1600 cars RHD and LHD were to Lusso spec with more
> trim and standard tune engine making the genuine variant 1016
> cars few and far between.
Thank you everybody for responding to this interesting and mysterious matter. I think Sherlock Holmes would have had problems with this one! but perhaps with your help we can get down to it more.
I have read in Wim Oude De Weernink's book that engines supplied by the factory came with the additional stamp VAR 1016 on the flywheel. But I have only ever read it there. I also read that Lancia homologated the Variante 1016 for FIA purposes and had to produce a minimum of 500 for Group 4. I believe that 1st 610 engines were thus homologated for Group 4 and should have been Variante.
I must say I don't have all the books (yet!) but even the great Itailan book by Enzo Altorio ( I would reccomend this book just for the pictures) makes very little mention of 1016 and this book has a more complete story of HF Fulvia than De Weernink's book. The only reference I can in Altorio's book find is that the 1016 is 'famous and mysterious' (p.177) and leaves it there! Maybe I have missed it. I do understand a little Italian and with the help of a dictionary get by well. Brian Long's book Racing Lancia's only had a paragraph on it!
So what I'd like to know is, has anybody else seen this stamp? (a real stamp not one put on after) perhaps on a works engine or Jolly club motor or even someone else who ordered it so. It would be interesting to find out how many witnesses there are to Weermink's assertion. Or maybe somebody 'in the know'?
Another point I'd like to ask, if anyone can help is, I understand that options could have been ordered or even made after delivery and I'm sure that a few people who had a 1.6HF would have asked for this option or bought it after market. How can I easily tell if any of the options have been put on my engine? I would assume that one of the easiest would be to take the cylinder head cover off and look at the cams. But where would I look and what would I look for? What about the pistons, where are the markings on them? (when I take the cylinder head off). The person that I bought the car from ( and raced it a little) was as mysterious as the 1016.
On point I'd like to clear up as well is what is the relevance of the numbers 818.540. 2264689 on the side of the block. I have looked in the spare parts catalogue and seen that the closest number to it 818.540. 2264683 +0.005 pistons which is an option for sporting use. I beleive that Lancia did most of their numberings in series like their chassis numbers. Can anyone deciper this for me and do series 2, 1.6HF's have this marking on them. Also, can anyone tell me what classe A, B, C, D mean in the spare parts catalogue Table 6A under the various pistons they have in them.
Well thats quite a lot there, I hope there is someone who can help and even add to this most wonerful mystery. It would be nice to keep this debate open, if only to help others who may come across this mystery.
Thanks very much to everybody who has helped me so far
Mortuza
Pete wrote:
>
> I understand from a good Lancia source that you could
> request a variant 1016 when new but only before the Fiat
> takeover in 1969. I was also told that a very high percentage
> of the S1 1600 cars RHD and LHD were to Lusso spec with more
> trim and standard tune engine making the genuine variant 1016
> cars few and far between.
-
Neil
Re: Variant 1016
The easiest way to see if it is likely to have a 1016 engine is to look at the the carbs. The standard 1.6 is 42 mm and the 1016 is 45mm (measure the throat). Alternatively you could measure the compression with a compression tester. The standard CR is 10.5:1, the 1016 is 11.5:1. Checking the cam is a major task I think. I don't think they have the part number stamped on them so you would have to take them out and mic the lobes (unless you could measure the lift without removal).
On another point how do you deduce the first 610 engines were homologated ? I know of no actual data about the numbers, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence from all the manufacturers that they never produced the 500 required by the FIA (Porsche, Lancia, Alpine-Renault etc).
I have the original registration docs for my car (31/1/70 - ordered in September 1969) and it is and has always had a standard tune engine.
There is also the question of what "homologation" actual means. Did the FIA demand that 500 of the base car were produced (ie the HF 1.6) or 500 of the fully modified car (ie the HF1.6 Var.1016)? Following this line of arguement - if the only difference between the standard and Var 1016 engine are a few internal modifications, did the FIA insist that 500 of each available type of final drive ratio were produced and sold, likewise the limted slip differential, aluminium calipers etc. I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect the FIA rules (as they were at the time) need to be fully understood before attempting to derive the amount of Var1016 that should have been built (it was after all only 1 of a number of competition modifications that could be ordered), and then trying (!!) to get the factory figures to compare. I am very interested in your research - and I wish you luck !
On another point how do you deduce the first 610 engines were homologated ? I know of no actual data about the numbers, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence from all the manufacturers that they never produced the 500 required by the FIA (Porsche, Lancia, Alpine-Renault etc).
I have the original registration docs for my car (31/1/70 - ordered in September 1969) and it is and has always had a standard tune engine.
There is also the question of what "homologation" actual means. Did the FIA demand that 500 of the base car were produced (ie the HF 1.6) or 500 of the fully modified car (ie the HF1.6 Var.1016)? Following this line of arguement - if the only difference between the standard and Var 1016 engine are a few internal modifications, did the FIA insist that 500 of each available type of final drive ratio were produced and sold, likewise the limted slip differential, aluminium calipers etc. I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect the FIA rules (as they were at the time) need to be fully understood before attempting to derive the amount of Var1016 that should have been built (it was after all only 1 of a number of competition modifications that could be ordered), and then trying (!!) to get the factory figures to compare. I am very interested in your research - and I wish you luck !
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mortuza
Re: Variant 1016
Thanks Neil for your response,
Right, first thing fiirst, 610. I got this number from 2 sources. Firstly, Wim H. Weernink's book mentions this number in his book 'Lancia Fulvia & Flavia' on page 134. There he states the production number for 818.540/1 as 1258 + 20 bulit later , 610 cars with variante 1016. Whether this is the 1st 610 or not I can't tell. My second source is the spare parts catalogue which label various 1016 parts 'up to 1,6HF 1609 including 1618 -1619'. This would indicate that these were parts for 1016 but I do not have proof.
A strong indication however comes from the spare parts catalogue, from which you can order a whole engine, thus:
Table 0/1 (page 40 on my pdf) the engine assembly (which I assume is the whole engine without electrical parts) part numbers are as follows:
818.540.1191363 (engine for cars before 1609 including 1618-1619)
818.540.1191383 (engine for cars before 1609 and option for sporting use) and
818.540.1191417 (engine for cars after 1609 but not incuding 1618-1619)
This indicates to me and unless you have infomation to the contrary that the first two are variante and the last those engines fitted to cars after 1609 and not the variante.
818.540.1191418 (for cars after 1609 except 1618-1619 for sporting use). Is a bit strange so if anyone can shed any light on this engine it would be helpful.
However, there are many part that are or cars before 1609 including 1618-1619 but not all of them would relate to variante 1016. Please take a look yourself and tell me what you think.
As for the carbs, as I understand, the Solex 45's made the car quite difficult to drive both for track and road and were a bit of a pain to work with so not many people ordered them, which might explain why they are so rare and indeed the works team changed them first for Weber DCOE 45 then to Dellorto 48's.
My car is 818.540.001250 with engine number 540.818.00242, which again is quite strange as I would have thought that having the 250th car I'd have the 250th or later engine. But having the number stamped on the flywheel cover doesn't neceessarily mean that I have the same engine as the one that came out of the factory. Also, my car was delivered around the 7th January 1970 (in Italy), with homogomation being October 1st 1969 and my car not being the 500th, something fishy is going on. I'd be glad if you could tell me the chassis number of your car. Perhaps Lancia homologated the car on the basis of orders and not numbers produced?
Probably the only way to find out would be to have a register of all 818.540 Fanalone still in existence. Maybe Viva Lancia could help?
I would have thought that FIA would require 500 modified cars were required since I understand at the time (I read this for the history of the Stratos but correct me if I am wrong) FIA rules require 500 examples for Group 4 homologation and then for further modifications another 20 have to be produced and this can only be done twice which is how Lancia homologated the Stratos for group 4. Further modifications after this would require another 500 examples.
I think in the rush too get the car homologated for Group 4, Lancia (may) have been a little relaxed in their accounting since the car was developed for/by Cesare Fiorio purley for competiton use and they were dying to race the car especially after the 2nd place in the Tour de Corse in 1968 as a prototype.
Also there is a point on the 'Lusso' cars. I would have thought that these cars inteneded for road use wouldn't have variante engine. How many 'Lusso' examples are there before chassis nummer 818540.00500
As a last note, with only a little to do with the Variante 1016, I read somewhere on this site and I would like to make a correction.
Chassis number 818540.001001 to 'around' chassis No. 818.540.001100 were in Amaranto Montebello (as a mark of respect to the 1.3 HF's) with the longitudinal stripes of Torino (blue and yellow) as in 1.2HF's and 1,3HF's . Also, I think there is a mystery as to chassis number 001001 - where is this car?
Well there you are I'm off out now to but a copy of Classic & Sports Car to see if there are ANY Fulvia's in it. I gotta say I've become a bit obsessed but I'm sure you understand. I look forward to hearing from anyone who can add to the story and once again thank you Neil for adding too.
Mortuza
Right, first thing fiirst, 610. I got this number from 2 sources. Firstly, Wim H. Weernink's book mentions this number in his book 'Lancia Fulvia & Flavia' on page 134. There he states the production number for 818.540/1 as 1258 + 20 bulit later , 610 cars with variante 1016. Whether this is the 1st 610 or not I can't tell. My second source is the spare parts catalogue which label various 1016 parts 'up to 1,6HF 1609 including 1618 -1619'. This would indicate that these were parts for 1016 but I do not have proof.
A strong indication however comes from the spare parts catalogue, from which you can order a whole engine, thus:
Table 0/1 (page 40 on my pdf) the engine assembly (which I assume is the whole engine without electrical parts) part numbers are as follows:
818.540.1191363 (engine for cars before 1609 including 1618-1619)
818.540.1191383 (engine for cars before 1609 and option for sporting use) and
818.540.1191417 (engine for cars after 1609 but not incuding 1618-1619)
This indicates to me and unless you have infomation to the contrary that the first two are variante and the last those engines fitted to cars after 1609 and not the variante.
818.540.1191418 (for cars after 1609 except 1618-1619 for sporting use). Is a bit strange so if anyone can shed any light on this engine it would be helpful.
However, there are many part that are or cars before 1609 including 1618-1619 but not all of them would relate to variante 1016. Please take a look yourself and tell me what you think.
As for the carbs, as I understand, the Solex 45's made the car quite difficult to drive both for track and road and were a bit of a pain to work with so not many people ordered them, which might explain why they are so rare and indeed the works team changed them first for Weber DCOE 45 then to Dellorto 48's.
My car is 818.540.001250 with engine number 540.818.00242, which again is quite strange as I would have thought that having the 250th car I'd have the 250th or later engine. But having the number stamped on the flywheel cover doesn't neceessarily mean that I have the same engine as the one that came out of the factory. Also, my car was delivered around the 7th January 1970 (in Italy), with homogomation being October 1st 1969 and my car not being the 500th, something fishy is going on. I'd be glad if you could tell me the chassis number of your car. Perhaps Lancia homologated the car on the basis of orders and not numbers produced?
Probably the only way to find out would be to have a register of all 818.540 Fanalone still in existence. Maybe Viva Lancia could help?
I would have thought that FIA would require 500 modified cars were required since I understand at the time (I read this for the history of the Stratos but correct me if I am wrong) FIA rules require 500 examples for Group 4 homologation and then for further modifications another 20 have to be produced and this can only be done twice which is how Lancia homologated the Stratos for group 4. Further modifications after this would require another 500 examples.
I think in the rush too get the car homologated for Group 4, Lancia (may) have been a little relaxed in their accounting since the car was developed for/by Cesare Fiorio purley for competiton use and they were dying to race the car especially after the 2nd place in the Tour de Corse in 1968 as a prototype.
Also there is a point on the 'Lusso' cars. I would have thought that these cars inteneded for road use wouldn't have variante engine. How many 'Lusso' examples are there before chassis nummer 818540.00500
As a last note, with only a little to do with the Variante 1016, I read somewhere on this site and I would like to make a correction.
Chassis number 818540.001001 to 'around' chassis No. 818.540.001100 were in Amaranto Montebello (as a mark of respect to the 1.3 HF's) with the longitudinal stripes of Torino (blue and yellow) as in 1.2HF's and 1,3HF's . Also, I think there is a mystery as to chassis number 001001 - where is this car?
Well there you are I'm off out now to but a copy of Classic & Sports Car to see if there are ANY Fulvia's in it. I gotta say I've become a bit obsessed but I'm sure you understand. I look forward to hearing from anyone who can add to the story and once again thank you Neil for adding too.
Mortuza
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ALAN COOPER
Re: Variant 1016
quote "for sporting use" surely this is variant 1016? if that was the case this note in the parts book would suggest that lancia made some basic modification to all 1600 hf engines at the change over point of engine numbers and that the 1016 was available as an option on either version?
as regards your engine number I don't believe that Lancia produced cars at least intentionally with matching numbers presumably engines were fitted in whatever order they arrived at the correct point on the production line and what about engines kept to one side for spares supply?
not a fulvia expert just my theory based on what you have said maybe there's an expert out there that has the real answer?
as regards your engine number I don't believe that Lancia produced cars at least intentionally with matching numbers presumably engines were fitted in whatever order they arrived at the correct point on the production line and what about engines kept to one side for spares supply?
not a fulvia expert just my theory based on what you have said maybe there's an expert out there that has the real answer?
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: Variant 1016
"Optional for sporting uses" appears all over the parts books.
In the 1967 book I found a camshaft part number (which I cannot remember but it began with 119) described as "optional etc."
I have a pair of these and they are not VAR1016 spec, being considerably "hotter". I wonder if they were ever "homologated"
On this point, someone referred to Porsche; at a time when Ferrari was producing chassis plates in an attempt to convince the FIA, Ferry Porsche had the FIA people come to the factory where he showed them 25 complete 917s, not a cheap operation, and very correct. there is a photograph of the cars all lined up and very impressive it is.
Paul
In the 1967 book I found a camshaft part number (which I cannot remember but it began with 119) described as "optional etc."
I have a pair of these and they are not VAR1016 spec, being considerably "hotter". I wonder if they were ever "homologated"
On this point, someone referred to Porsche; at a time when Ferrari was producing chassis plates in an attempt to convince the FIA, Ferry Porsche had the FIA people come to the factory where he showed them 25 complete 917s, not a cheap operation, and very correct. there is a photograph of the cars all lined up and very impressive it is.
Paul