ride height series 1 vs. series 2
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Christopher Adams
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
Thanks for all the responses. I will not change anything on my subframe, and keep with the michelin 165/14" tyres I have at the moment until I can source a set of Safari 14" alloys, which must have some advantage in terms of reducing unsprung weight. If the consensus is that a 165/70 profile tyre works best this would mean changing the final drive ratio to suit, to keep the gearing correct.
Is it possible to change the final drive in a series 2 to the first series ratio?
(A 165/70 14" wheel is the same rolling radius as the 145/80 14" wheel)
Also aren't the series 2 rims 4.5" wide? Can anyone tell me if the Safari Alloy is 4.5", or 5" wide?
Regards
Chris
So who has a set of safari alloys that they wish to sell?
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Huib
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
I overlooked your question first time. Sorry.
If one uses a Fulvia for normal road use, they handle best if they are totally original. Goes for all types, S1, S2 and S3. Believe me (and others who did similar postings in the past), Lancia was in those days "run by engineers". No compromises with the accountants or sales guys. Simply what was best for handling by average drivers like myself and on normal roads. I would lie, steal and murder to get new original Michelin X 145R14 tires. Just the simple X tire, mother of all radial tires. Lancia was Michelin's first OEM customer for the radial tire when they put it on the Aprilia in 1946. The philosophies of both companies were very similar. Both wanted to build products not for a simple shopping car neither race cars, but cars and tires to travel long distances in comfort, safety and high average speed, which is entirely different from high top speed. Since 1946 all Lancia engineers and test drivers were accustomed to the X tire. Untill the Fiat take over Michelins and Lancias were the ideal combination. In those days Michelin also started to make the "wrong" tires. Today BTW, I have test driven a splendid S1 berlina GT on Toyo 155R14 tires. Excellent! Perhaps even more Michelin tires than the Michelin tires themselves.
Unless you have special use for the car such as racing, rallies or high freeway only mileage, my advise is the simplest there is: keep everything standard. Well, maybe the advise is not so simple anymore as some sizes are no longer available.
If one uses a Fulvia for normal road use, they handle best if they are totally original. Goes for all types, S1, S2 and S3. Believe me (and others who did similar postings in the past), Lancia was in those days "run by engineers". No compromises with the accountants or sales guys. Simply what was best for handling by average drivers like myself and on normal roads. I would lie, steal and murder to get new original Michelin X 145R14 tires. Just the simple X tire, mother of all radial tires. Lancia was Michelin's first OEM customer for the radial tire when they put it on the Aprilia in 1946. The philosophies of both companies were very similar. Both wanted to build products not for a simple shopping car neither race cars, but cars and tires to travel long distances in comfort, safety and high average speed, which is entirely different from high top speed. Since 1946 all Lancia engineers and test drivers were accustomed to the X tire. Untill the Fiat take over Michelins and Lancias were the ideal combination. In those days Michelin also started to make the "wrong" tires. Today BTW, I have test driven a splendid S1 berlina GT on Toyo 155R14 tires. Excellent! Perhaps even more Michelin tires than the Michelin tires themselves.
Unless you have special use for the car such as racing, rallies or high freeway only mileage, my advise is the simplest there is: keep everything standard. Well, maybe the advise is not so simple anymore as some sizes are no longer available.
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Randy Adams
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
Ah, the Fulvia.
If I had another garage I'd definitely have another Fulvia, for it is no longer appropriate to leave a Fulvia parked outdoors like I do my Beta coupe and Biturbo.
I remember having the bushes replaced on my S1 coupe one or two years before I sold it (in 1996). I believe the new ones were made out of some harder modern material like neoprene. I was very sorry that I made that "improvement" as the car lost its inimitable combination of precise feel and insulation from road shocks through the wood rimmed wheel. I suspect that this difference is one of the differences found between the S1 and the S2 cars, although I have never driven the latter.
I never did have the benefit of correct size tires on either of my Fulvias. The closest I came was a set of 155R14 Klebers. They were not very good tires. I believe the size I used for most of the years I had the cars was 175/60R14. I might be mis-remembering the wall height. It was still a bit overgeared with those on the car.
Huib, you did not find the S1 Sport to be a bit too light in the tail? That was the one objection I had to that otherwise very charismatic car. In fact my car seemed to benefit from having its rear Dunlop calipers nearly nonfunctional due to internal rust.
Huib's comments about new cars versus old cars reminds me of an experience I've been having lately. For three years I've complained about the vague feel in my manual-steered Biturbo. I've told many people it is the only Italian car without proper feel from the wheel that I have ever experienced. Then I recently tried an Alfa 164 with power steering which felt more like the tiller on a boat. There was NO road feel at all. Shortly after that I had occasion to use my Flaminia convertible and everything was just as it should be, with the steering wheel communicating the road conditions and the car's attitude clearly and no unnecessary shocks to my hands. While the Flaminia, just like the Fulvia, needs over four turns of the wheel lock-to-lock, much smaller adjustments to the wheel provide on-the-road direction changes than are required by the Biturbo or the Alfa. I guess I've just been spoilt by the wonderful subtleties of the "F" model Lancias over the years and nothing else compares.
I agree that it is wisest to go with the compromises that the Lancia engineers selected. They were magicians.
If I had another garage I'd definitely have another Fulvia, for it is no longer appropriate to leave a Fulvia parked outdoors like I do my Beta coupe and Biturbo.
I remember having the bushes replaced on my S1 coupe one or two years before I sold it (in 1996). I believe the new ones were made out of some harder modern material like neoprene. I was very sorry that I made that "improvement" as the car lost its inimitable combination of precise feel and insulation from road shocks through the wood rimmed wheel. I suspect that this difference is one of the differences found between the S1 and the S2 cars, although I have never driven the latter.
I never did have the benefit of correct size tires on either of my Fulvias. The closest I came was a set of 155R14 Klebers. They were not very good tires. I believe the size I used for most of the years I had the cars was 175/60R14. I might be mis-remembering the wall height. It was still a bit overgeared with those on the car.
Huib, you did not find the S1 Sport to be a bit too light in the tail? That was the one objection I had to that otherwise very charismatic car. In fact my car seemed to benefit from having its rear Dunlop calipers nearly nonfunctional due to internal rust.
Huib's comments about new cars versus old cars reminds me of an experience I've been having lately. For three years I've complained about the vague feel in my manual-steered Biturbo. I've told many people it is the only Italian car without proper feel from the wheel that I have ever experienced. Then I recently tried an Alfa 164 with power steering which felt more like the tiller on a boat. There was NO road feel at all. Shortly after that I had occasion to use my Flaminia convertible and everything was just as it should be, with the steering wheel communicating the road conditions and the car's attitude clearly and no unnecessary shocks to my hands. While the Flaminia, just like the Fulvia, needs over four turns of the wheel lock-to-lock, much smaller adjustments to the wheel provide on-the-road direction changes than are required by the Biturbo or the Alfa. I guess I've just been spoilt by the wonderful subtleties of the "F" model Lancias over the years and nothing else compares.
I agree that it is wisest to go with the compromises that the Lancia engineers selected. They were magicians.
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Christopher Adams
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
Yes, the point of the post was to work out how to make the most of my series 2 car by trying to understand a little of why everyone regards the series 1 Rallye 1.3 & 1.3s as the best.
The contrast between the fulvia and my modern car couldn't be more extreme....
I have a 2004 VW Golf R32. Interesting in that it has a narrow angle V configuration 6 cylinder engine, a cross section shows many similarities with the fulvia! It manages 75bhp/litre only slightly better than the fulvia at about 70bhp/litre, but does have the advantage of a 3.2l capacity... The Golf is remarkable to drive as it runs on (standard spec) 18" wheels with 225/40 series tyres. It is also 4WD with the torque split being variable, controlled with a Haldex electronic clutch. So as you can imagine road holding is otherworldly! The steering is super direct at 2.5 turns lock to lock, and pretty well damped and weighted, but compared to the fulvia the steering feel is quite artificial, and the ride is abysmal on anything other than smooth roads.
Of all the small sporty hatchbacks I have driven the Renault Clio Sport is the closest to the fulvia in terms of providing a beautiful compromise between ride, handling and road holding. It is very fluid and allows speed to be carried comfortably through less than perfect road conditions much as the fulvia does.
I love the Golf because it is stupidly fast, corners amazingly, and is at the same time relatively practical and very safe, but the fulvia is something else again in terms of the subtlety of how it drives.
Chris
Keep looking for those Safari alloys!
The contrast between the fulvia and my modern car couldn't be more extreme....
I have a 2004 VW Golf R32. Interesting in that it has a narrow angle V configuration 6 cylinder engine, a cross section shows many similarities with the fulvia! It manages 75bhp/litre only slightly better than the fulvia at about 70bhp/litre, but does have the advantage of a 3.2l capacity... The Golf is remarkable to drive as it runs on (standard spec) 18" wheels with 225/40 series tyres. It is also 4WD with the torque split being variable, controlled with a Haldex electronic clutch. So as you can imagine road holding is otherworldly! The steering is super direct at 2.5 turns lock to lock, and pretty well damped and weighted, but compared to the fulvia the steering feel is quite artificial, and the ride is abysmal on anything other than smooth roads.
Of all the small sporty hatchbacks I have driven the Renault Clio Sport is the closest to the fulvia in terms of providing a beautiful compromise between ride, handling and road holding. It is very fluid and allows speed to be carried comfortably through less than perfect road conditions much as the fulvia does.
I love the Golf because it is stupidly fast, corners amazingly, and is at the same time relatively practical and very safe, but the fulvia is something else again in terms of the subtlety of how it drives.
Chris
Keep looking for those Safari alloys!
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
Huib wrote:
> I would however hesitate to put the 165/70R14 tires on the
> standard 4,5J14 wheels. I would like 5J or 5,5J wheels. What
> wheels did you put the 165/70R14 tires on?
Ha-ha! They were fitted to the original S1 steel wheels. My tyre data book says that a 4.5" wheel is OK with 165 tyres, although of course 5" is better.
Paul
> I would however hesitate to put the 165/70R14 tires on the
> standard 4,5J14 wheels. I would like 5J or 5,5J wheels. What
> wheels did you put the 165/70R14 tires on?
Ha-ha! They were fitted to the original S1 steel wheels. My tyre data book says that a 4.5" wheel is OK with 165 tyres, although of course 5" is better.
Paul
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
Well the VW concept is a direct crib of the Fulvia engine concept, so VW is on safe ground!
Regarding Renault Clios, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to drive a Clio Williams.
Yes the car feels all of a piece and like a Lancia Evo has excellent turn in. However, like the Evo, the steering is so dead compared with that of a Fulvia (Flaminia, Appia, Flavia, Aurelia etc.)
Randy's point is well made I think.
Paul
Regarding Renault Clios, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to drive a Clio Williams.
Yes the car feels all of a piece and like a Lancia Evo has excellent turn in. However, like the Evo, the steering is so dead compared with that of a Fulvia (Flaminia, Appia, Flavia, Aurelia etc.)
Randy's point is well made I think.
Paul
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Huib
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
Amen.
About the Sport. I suppose it is light in the tail as the other Fulvia's. Since I mostly drive Fulvia's for the last ten years, I am probably used to it and no longer notice it. I can imagine of you drive Flaminia's too, you will feel a difference. On one hand a bizarre front wheel drive car with all the weight in the front. The rear wheels are just there beacuse it would not be a car if it hadn't four wheels so to speak. On the other hand a rear wheel drive with near to ideal weight distribution. Larger difference between cars is probably not possible. Still, bot handle in a very excellent way with better than excellent feel from the wheel (I like that expression).
But I do sometimes think that both the coupe and the sport might benefit from size 20 rear wheel brake cilinders rather than size 21.
About the Sport. I suppose it is light in the tail as the other Fulvia's. Since I mostly drive Fulvia's for the last ten years, I am probably used to it and no longer notice it. I can imagine of you drive Flaminia's too, you will feel a difference. On one hand a bizarre front wheel drive car with all the weight in the front. The rear wheels are just there beacuse it would not be a car if it hadn't four wheels so to speak. On the other hand a rear wheel drive with near to ideal weight distribution. Larger difference between cars is probably not possible. Still, bot handle in a very excellent way with better than excellent feel from the wheel (I like that expression).
But I do sometimes think that both the coupe and the sport might benefit from size 20 rear wheel brake cilinders rather than size 21.
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Jay Hinton
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
Huib,
There is no one else like you!
You advise people to keep everything original on their Fulvias, except for racing, track events, etc....and this is fact quite admirable. In many ways, I agree.
yet, If we look around your own Fulvias, what would we find? Hmm, let's see, under the bonnet, why heavens... there is a nice looking set of Dell'Orto carbs. And then a fuel pressure requlator, of course. Then over on the left, why, a electronic ignition aid of some sort. Good idea. Moving over to the chassis, we now see those new, ATE front calipers that do away with the troublesome older Dunlops brakes. Cromodora alloys in 13 inch size are bolted on to newly devised bearings/hub where the original Lancia 14 inch steel wheels used to be. And of course, a new profile tire, as there aren't any 145-80-14s left. And just like me, you must have the replacement DeCarbon shocks, which are indeed excellent.
Certainly, there have been no alterations to the interior fittings, such as a aftermarket Ferrodo rally style leather steering wheel, or any other electrical rewiring, to help things cope with today.
What's the point of the inspection? Its to point out how well you have selected replacement pieces and parts to help your Fulvia perform its best today. And all of these modifications are reasonable and intelligent. I might call them sensible upgrades, to help your Fulvia fit into its current time and environment.
Here in the US, I find I sort of have to do a fair amount of highway driving. I think my GTE berlina's final drive needs to be lowered, the easiest way I can think to do that is to swap in a 1.3 coupe tranny, what with a 3.94 final drive ratio vs. the stock 4.1 ratio. Heresy? I don't think so. If magically Lancia where around and I was ordering the GTE from new, I would have said, I'll take the higher final drive gearing option, please. So, lets keep tinkering and working hard to have our Fulvias be as good as possible, today.
There is no one else like you!
You advise people to keep everything original on their Fulvias, except for racing, track events, etc....and this is fact quite admirable. In many ways, I agree.
yet, If we look around your own Fulvias, what would we find? Hmm, let's see, under the bonnet, why heavens... there is a nice looking set of Dell'Orto carbs. And then a fuel pressure requlator, of course. Then over on the left, why, a electronic ignition aid of some sort. Good idea. Moving over to the chassis, we now see those new, ATE front calipers that do away with the troublesome older Dunlops brakes. Cromodora alloys in 13 inch size are bolted on to newly devised bearings/hub where the original Lancia 14 inch steel wheels used to be. And of course, a new profile tire, as there aren't any 145-80-14s left. And just like me, you must have the replacement DeCarbon shocks, which are indeed excellent.
Certainly, there have been no alterations to the interior fittings, such as a aftermarket Ferrodo rally style leather steering wheel, or any other electrical rewiring, to help things cope with today.
What's the point of the inspection? Its to point out how well you have selected replacement pieces and parts to help your Fulvia perform its best today. And all of these modifications are reasonable and intelligent. I might call them sensible upgrades, to help your Fulvia fit into its current time and environment.
Here in the US, I find I sort of have to do a fair amount of highway driving. I think my GTE berlina's final drive needs to be lowered, the easiest way I can think to do that is to swap in a 1.3 coupe tranny, what with a 3.94 final drive ratio vs. the stock 4.1 ratio. Heresy? I don't think so. If magically Lancia where around and I was ordering the GTE from new, I would have said, I'll take the higher final drive gearing option, please. So, lets keep tinkering and working hard to have our Fulvias be as good as possible, today.
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Huib
Re: ride height series 1 vs. series 2
Well, Jay. I am an average driver. So is Annabel. Not the super pilot you and many others are. A standard car is good enough for me. In fact I prefer the feel from the wheel much more than speed and prefer to go look for country roads and avoid freeways rather than adept the car.
If anybody is different. Very fine to me. Fortunately we are all different. I can only say how I am and think. And admit that I am stupid enough to no longer understand quite a few others. This is purely the result of my lack of comprehending capacities. Nothing else. Nobody should believe my words. Even less consider them as the gospel. I don't even have a beard. But everybody is of cours free to form a picture in his mind and see how it feels.
On my cars most is original or from the period such as the Dellorto's. I have sold all my Cromodora's and Campagnolo's already over a year ago. Only the steel original wheels, steel 5,5J13 wheels (unused) and 5,5J13 Stilauto alloys. The tires are indeed a problem. Even if 145R14 would still be available, it would not be the original X with its rather solid running surface and very soft walls and all steel belt. Options are today 165/80R13 or 165/70R14. For the moment I am sticking with the 165R80/13 on 5,5J13 wheels as those were an existing option at the time and they don't do bad.
I had the De Carbon shocks made because those were the original shocks! Not the other way around my friend. My first Lancia's end sixties / early 70's all had De Carbon shocks. It is also somewhere in the S1 workshop manual that the original shocks are De Carbon. Now that the patent has expired most shock manufacturers including KONI offer high pressure gas monotube shocks for high end cars but at much higher price than the hydraulic twin tube ones.
The Dunlop brakes are not at all troublesome. Here I totally disagree. The trouble is that most people don't understand how they work as they work entirely different from modern disc brakes. One has to turn his way of thinking 180 degrees around so to speak to get the Dunlop system ok. Once it is ok, there is no better brake system. I would not consider to swap it for any other brake system on my S1 cars.
My S1 cars have the original steering wheels. Together with the Flaminia steering wheels, the best ever made. No way I would swap them for any other steering wheel. In fact I have two spare S1 steering wheels for every S1 car I have to make sure I never run out of steering wheels.
If anybody is different. Very fine to me. Fortunately we are all different. I can only say how I am and think. And admit that I am stupid enough to no longer understand quite a few others. This is purely the result of my lack of comprehending capacities. Nothing else. Nobody should believe my words. Even less consider them as the gospel. I don't even have a beard. But everybody is of cours free to form a picture in his mind and see how it feels.
On my cars most is original or from the period such as the Dellorto's. I have sold all my Cromodora's and Campagnolo's already over a year ago. Only the steel original wheels, steel 5,5J13 wheels (unused) and 5,5J13 Stilauto alloys. The tires are indeed a problem. Even if 145R14 would still be available, it would not be the original X with its rather solid running surface and very soft walls and all steel belt. Options are today 165/80R13 or 165/70R14. For the moment I am sticking with the 165R80/13 on 5,5J13 wheels as those were an existing option at the time and they don't do bad.
I had the De Carbon shocks made because those were the original shocks! Not the other way around my friend. My first Lancia's end sixties / early 70's all had De Carbon shocks. It is also somewhere in the S1 workshop manual that the original shocks are De Carbon. Now that the patent has expired most shock manufacturers including KONI offer high pressure gas monotube shocks for high end cars but at much higher price than the hydraulic twin tube ones.
The Dunlop brakes are not at all troublesome. Here I totally disagree. The trouble is that most people don't understand how they work as they work entirely different from modern disc brakes. One has to turn his way of thinking 180 degrees around so to speak to get the Dunlop system ok. Once it is ok, there is no better brake system. I would not consider to swap it for any other brake system on my S1 cars.
My S1 cars have the original steering wheels. Together with the Flaminia steering wheels, the best ever made. No way I would swap them for any other steering wheel. In fact I have two spare S1 steering wheels for every S1 car I have to make sure I never run out of steering wheels.