I've been informed by Omnicron that the S1 a-arm(wishbone) bushing are no longer available. They have a system to convert the car to s2 bushings. Anyone made the conversion? I'm collecting infomation before I do this. The grease caps on my passenger side are torn. The metal sleeves are fine.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks
Dan
s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
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Huib Geurink
Re: s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
There are Ferrari bushes that fit.
I assume you are talking about the lower ones. The upper ones hardly go bad. uusally the right hand ones at the bottom go first. Probably more due to oil spillage when changing the filter than wear.
Quite a few have been converted. Works well. I have two 1967 coupes. One had the conversion when I bought her. I left it. The car runs and handles fine. On the other one, I replaced the bushes by bushes made from POM which is a very stable plastic and got rid of the rubber part of the bush. The outer part is thus POM, the inner part is chromax steel with a larger diameter than the original steel inner bush. Because I got rid of the rubber, I could use a larger diameter and thus reduce pressure. Car also runs fine. I like to think the steering is more exact because there is less rubber, but this might be entirely subjective and/or wishfull thinking. And it is difficult to compare two cars with different wheels and tires even if they are the same model and year.
The car with the conversion had the original steel wheels with Michelin MX 145R14 tires. The one with the POM bushes had 6J x 13 Cromodora's with Michelin Classic 165/80R13.
The car with the conversion now has 5,5Jx13 wheels with Michelin E3B 165/80R13 and the other one is in restoration so I cannot do another comparison at the moment.
If you do the conversion, make sure you tighten the bolts with the A arms in the position as specified in the manuals otherwise they will fail very quickly.
I assume you are talking about the lower ones. The upper ones hardly go bad. uusally the right hand ones at the bottom go first. Probably more due to oil spillage when changing the filter than wear.
Quite a few have been converted. Works well. I have two 1967 coupes. One had the conversion when I bought her. I left it. The car runs and handles fine. On the other one, I replaced the bushes by bushes made from POM which is a very stable plastic and got rid of the rubber part of the bush. The outer part is thus POM, the inner part is chromax steel with a larger diameter than the original steel inner bush. Because I got rid of the rubber, I could use a larger diameter and thus reduce pressure. Car also runs fine. I like to think the steering is more exact because there is less rubber, but this might be entirely subjective and/or wishfull thinking. And it is difficult to compare two cars with different wheels and tires even if they are the same model and year.
The car with the conversion had the original steel wheels with Michelin MX 145R14 tires. The one with the POM bushes had 6J x 13 Cromodora's with Michelin Classic 165/80R13.
The car with the conversion now has 5,5Jx13 wheels with Michelin E3B 165/80R13 and the other one is in restoration so I cannot do another comparison at the moment.
If you do the conversion, make sure you tighten the bolts with the A arms in the position as specified in the manuals otherwise they will fail very quickly.
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
Like Huib, I think that it is better to look at getting something made up.
I believe that the superior delicacy of handling of the S1s as compared with theS2s can only be attributed to the absence of Silentbloc bushes. After all the geometry is the same! We have fitted 165/70 tyres to S1s and the owners have reported that the handling remains delicate, so it must be the bushes.
It should be relatively easy to have some bushes made in Nylatron or similar material. whilst this may affect the ride slightly you will have nice sharp accurate handling
Paul
I believe that the superior delicacy of handling of the S1s as compared with theS2s can only be attributed to the absence of Silentbloc bushes. After all the geometry is the same! We have fitted 165/70 tyres to S1s and the owners have reported that the handling remains delicate, so it must be the bushes.
It should be relatively easy to have some bushes made in Nylatron or similar material. whilst this may affect the ride slightly you will have nice sharp accurate handling
Paul
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Dan Chiaradonna
Re: s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
Thanks Paul and Huib. I'll see what we can make up here. We recently rebuilt the steering linkage as per your recommendations. Wow, what a difference. Anyone who is experiencing wander or front end "hunting", perform this rebuild. It transforms the car. The steering is so precise, I finally understand the legendary handling and control these cars are known for.
As for the lower wishbone bushings. Given the excellent handling of the car, I have to assume it's only the grease cap that tore. Once we get it all apart we'll see.
Thanks again guys.
Dan
As for the lower wishbone bushings. Given the excellent handling of the car, I have to assume it's only the grease cap that tore. Once we get it all apart we'll see.
Thanks again guys.
Dan
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Huib Geurink
Re: s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
Paul
I have often wondered what causes the difference in handling between an S1 and an S2/3. The S2/3 are good cars, but the S1 just handles a bit nicer. More delicate is indeed the right word. Also I find them less tiring on very long distances.
Solid bushes instead of a lot of rubber in the silent bloc is no doubt one of the differences. But remember, the original bushes also had a rubber outer bush. Perhaps the fact that the bushes rotate without resistance and do not have a "preferred" position is a more important factor. The Ferrari bushes which also fit the S1 Fulvia's are called "low friction bushes".
There are more differences though. The diameter of the tires is 1 inch more on the S2/3. The center of gravity is thus 1 inch lower on S1's. One might think, that 1 inch larger tires raise the car by half an inch, but the spings are also half an inch higher.
Also on the S1 the steering column is a one piece shaft. The S2/3 has a divided steering shaft.
The absence of a center console makes the car feel wider.
I immensely like the large S1 steering wheel as well as the long shift stick.
I can't really say what contributes what. Can you think of any more differences?
I have often wondered what causes the difference in handling between an S1 and an S2/3. The S2/3 are good cars, but the S1 just handles a bit nicer. More delicate is indeed the right word. Also I find them less tiring on very long distances.
Solid bushes instead of a lot of rubber in the silent bloc is no doubt one of the differences. But remember, the original bushes also had a rubber outer bush. Perhaps the fact that the bushes rotate without resistance and do not have a "preferred" position is a more important factor. The Ferrari bushes which also fit the S1 Fulvia's are called "low friction bushes".
There are more differences though. The diameter of the tires is 1 inch more on the S2/3. The center of gravity is thus 1 inch lower on S1's. One might think, that 1 inch larger tires raise the car by half an inch, but the spings are also half an inch higher.
Also on the S1 the steering column is a one piece shaft. The S2/3 has a divided steering shaft.
The absence of a center console makes the car feel wider.
I immensely like the large S1 steering wheel as well as the long shift stick.
I can't really say what contributes what. Can you think of any more differences?
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Huib Geurink
Re: s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
DAn,
If there is no torque steering, leave the bushes. If one of the bushes of the lower wishbones goes bad you will immediately notice it in the steering.
Huib
If there is no torque steering, leave the bushes. If one of the bushes of the lower wishbones goes bad you will immediately notice it in the steering.
Huib
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Huib Geurink
Correction
Dan
I just noted in an earlier posting that you are rallying the car. You may want to stay ahead of a failing wishbone bush as they detoriate quickly once they start going bad.
Huib
I just noted in an earlier posting that you are rallying the car. You may want to stay ahead of a failing wishbone bush as they detoriate quickly once they start going bad.
Huib
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Paul de R. Leclercq
Re: s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
I believe that the delicacy is as you say the fact that proper bushes are used both on the top and bottom wishbones, rather than the horrid process of winding up silentblocs; this means that the suspension works more effciently.
The ride height is lower on the S1 but I doubt that this would affect it as the suspension geometry is the same. It may be that there is a difference in Ackerman angle - I have not seen it specified anywhere - but I doubt it. The bronze bushes in the steering idler may also be a factor.
As I wrote earlier we have fitted 165/70-14 tyres to an S1 and the owner, a very experienced and skilled driver, reported no loss of delicacy which he was anxius to preserve.
Rgds
Paul
The ride height is lower on the S1 but I doubt that this would affect it as the suspension geometry is the same. It may be that there is a difference in Ackerman angle - I have not seen it specified anywhere - but I doubt it. The bronze bushes in the steering idler may also be a factor.
As I wrote earlier we have fitted 165/70-14 tyres to an S1 and the owner, a very experienced and skilled driver, reported no loss of delicacy which he was anxius to preserve.
Rgds
Paul
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Peter
Re: s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
Paul, I have fitted large wheels (185/70/14) to my s1 with 1inch spacers. Anybody (including myself) would think this is a bad setup. The contrary is true! It drives absolutely precise, and even with the spacers: no torque steering whatsoever. I do not notice any difference with or without the spacers which surprised me. I manage to get the car in a four wheel drift (left foot braking) without any problems with both setups.
The suspension is newly built and I think this is where the secret is. As soon as I am starting to have to replace parts because the have play, I will drop the subframe and do it all over again. On my second series HF I have replaced every part of the suspension for sure, but never all at the same time. It never steered so sharp as this new one. Would recommend a complete overhaul to everybody.
The suspension is newly built and I think this is where the secret is. As soon as I am starting to have to replace parts because the have play, I will drop the subframe and do it all over again. On my second series HF I have replaced every part of the suspension for sure, but never all at the same time. It never steered so sharp as this new one. Would recommend a complete overhaul to everybody.
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Paul de Raymond Leclercq
Re: s1 Fulvia A-arm bushings.
Peter,
Yes of course the car will be good with fully-rebuilt suspension.
I would suggest that 185-70/14s are a bit large - you will be over-geared too.
I have no problem with the width personally, but I suggest that 175/70 or better stll 185/65 (if obtainable) might be better.
PaulPeter wrote:
>
> Paul, I have fitted large wheels (185/70/14) to my s1 with
> 1inch spacers. Anybody (including myself) would think this is
> a bad setup. The contrary is true! It drives absolutely
> precise, and even with the spacers: no torque steering
> whatsoever. I do not notice any difference with or without
> the spacers which surprised me. I manage to get the car in a
> four wheel drift (left foot braking) without any problems
> with both setups.
>
> The suspension is newly built and I think this is where the
> secret is. As soon as I am starting to have to replace parts
> because the have play, I will drop the subframe and do it all
> over again. On my second series HF I have replaced every part
> of the suspension for sure, but never all at the same time.
> It never steered so sharp as this new one. Would recommend a
> complete overhaul to everybody.
Yes of course the car will be good with fully-rebuilt suspension.
I would suggest that 185-70/14s are a bit large - you will be over-geared too.
I have no problem with the width personally, but I suggest that 175/70 or better stll 185/65 (if obtainable) might be better.
PaulPeter wrote:
>
> Paul, I have fitted large wheels (185/70/14) to my s1 with
> 1inch spacers. Anybody (including myself) would think this is
> a bad setup. The contrary is true! It drives absolutely
> precise, and even with the spacers: no torque steering
> whatsoever. I do not notice any difference with or without
> the spacers which surprised me. I manage to get the car in a
> four wheel drift (left foot braking) without any problems
> with both setups.
>
> The suspension is newly built and I think this is where the
> secret is. As soon as I am starting to have to replace parts
> because the have play, I will drop the subframe and do it all
> over again. On my second series HF I have replaced every part
> of the suspension for sure, but never all at the same time.
> It never steered so sharp as this new one. Would recommend a
> complete overhaul to everybody.