Subframe removal
Re: Subframe removal
I too am contemplating the task of subframe removal on my 68 coupe Rallye 1.3.
Can anyone tell me if all the rubber bushes for the subframe are all readily available, and also if the tie rod ends are available. My steering is quite "vague" and I have a few rattles in the front suspension. I have new shocks on, but the subframe looks very "original"... and tired! Any tips on subframe and steering disassembly abmost welcome...
Thanks,
Mike
Australia
Can anyone tell me if all the rubber bushes for the subframe are all readily available, and also if the tie rod ends are available. My steering is quite "vague" and I have a few rattles in the front suspension. I have new shocks on, but the subframe looks very "original"... and tired! Any tips on subframe and steering disassembly abmost welcome...
Thanks,
Mike
Australia
Re: Subframe removal
Again, please see the description of the process that I wrote - in the hints & tips section, or search.
The tie rod (drag link) has fixed ends whilst the track rods' ends are individually replaceable. All are available.
Whilst you are fortunate in having a S1 car with its bronze-bushed steering idler, sadly the S1 rod ends are really not up to the job; S2 ones are much better and indeed hardly ever wear out. They cannot unfortuately be fitted to S1s as the taper is different.
You will need a good quality ball-joint cracker to dismantle the steering; removal of the drop arms from the steering box and idler box requires industrial-strength hydraulic pullers and usually oxy-acetylene especiall for S1s where there was a tapered spline on the idle box.
Engine mounting rubbers are available.
best of luck
Paul
The tie rod (drag link) has fixed ends whilst the track rods' ends are individually replaceable. All are available.
Whilst you are fortunate in having a S1 car with its bronze-bushed steering idler, sadly the S1 rod ends are really not up to the job; S2 ones are much better and indeed hardly ever wear out. They cannot unfortuately be fitted to S1s as the taper is different.
You will need a good quality ball-joint cracker to dismantle the steering; removal of the drop arms from the steering box and idler box requires industrial-strength hydraulic pullers and usually oxy-acetylene especiall for S1s where there was a tapered spline on the idle box.
Engine mounting rubbers are available.
best of luck
Paul
Vague steering
As Paul says the S1 steering ball joints made by Frap are bad. Same for the suspension ball joints. Or at least they used to be bad. I was happy if I could do a Tuliprallye (ca 3000km) with them. Sometimes they went bad after just 200km.
Current production seems to be better.
I have disassembled some of the bad steering ones. The balls themselves looked all right. I suspect the plastic cups have gone bad or the spring did not apply enough pressure.
Disassembly is easy. Just push (with vice or press) the ball upwards and the cover comes off. Machining new cups from good material is not difficult. What I have not figured out is how to put the cover back on. I hope someone comes up with a good idea.
Current production seems to be better.
I have disassembled some of the bad steering ones. The balls themselves looked all right. I suspect the plastic cups have gone bad or the spring did not apply enough pressure.
Disassembly is easy. Just push (with vice or press) the ball upwards and the cover comes off. Machining new cups from good material is not difficult. What I have not figured out is how to put the cover back on. I hope someone comes up with a good idea.
Re: Vague steering
I believe that the problem is that the joints are simply not big enough. Of course if they were better quality, they would last longer, but the fact remains that the SII ones seldom give any trouble, but they are nearly twice the size.
The SII ones may not be a FIAT innovation; as is well known, changes were on the way despite the impending collapse of Lancia late in 1969. On the other hand, the SII track rod is a rather nasty thing compared with the very expensively-made SI ones so maybe FIAT had a hand in it after all!
Either way, the improved ball joints represent one feature of the SII that is greatly superior.
Paul
The SII ones may not be a FIAT innovation; as is well known, changes were on the way despite the impending collapse of Lancia late in 1969. On the other hand, the SII track rod is a rather nasty thing compared with the very expensively-made SI ones so maybe FIAT had a hand in it after all!
Either way, the improved ball joints represent one feature of the SII that is greatly superior.
Paul
Re: Vague steering
The S1 joints were originally used on the Flavia's, which are much heavier cars. I suspect that original Lancia joints must have done reasonably well on Fulvia's.
Elena, one of my 1967 rallye 1.3 coupes has done 50.000kms since I bought the car. I have not changed any steering joints.
I did have all the problems on Tina, the other 1967 coupe which is now under restoration.
The S2 joints are certainly better, also the later top suspension ball joints. Nevertheless I believe that with better materials it should be possible to get 100.000km out of S1 joints.
Elena, one of my 1967 rallye 1.3 coupes has done 50.000kms since I bought the car. I have not changed any steering joints.
I did have all the problems on Tina, the other 1967 coupe which is now under restoration.
The S2 joints are certainly better, also the later top suspension ball joints. Nevertheless I believe that with better materials it should be possible to get 100.000km out of S1 joints.
Re: Vague steering
Yes of course it is true that the original joints were used on Flavias; as you suggest, perhaps there is a quality issue here.
As for the late type top ball joints (as used on the pressed wishbone cars) you may like to know that they are FIAT 125 bottom ball joints!
Paul
As for the late type top ball joints (as used on the pressed wishbone cars) you may like to know that they are FIAT 125 bottom ball joints!
Paul
Re: Vague steering
Right.
And fortunately those later type top ball joints are still available from Lemfoerder which is a top quality ball joint and steering joint manufacturer.
I heard some time ago, that Alfa Romeo people were also disgusted with the quality of the Frap joints. They got Lemfoerder to remake the joints and their problems disappeared.
The very early Flavia's had very beautiful ball joints. Very large balls. The top one was split in an upper and a lower half with steel balls in between. The steering rotation was thus done with a ball bearing. The cups were beautifully machined out of brass. With a thick piece of high quality rubber the whole thing was then assembled into the wishbone, I suspect with shims to remove any play.
The bottom ones were as nice but did not have the ball bearing.
The Flaminia has the ball bearing in the lower joint as the weight of the car rests on the lower wishbone. I do occasionally hear RR people boast about the RR being the only car with a ball bearing being incorporated inside the suspension joints. Well, Flaminia's and early Flavia's did have that too. I have a set of the Flavia ones. Unfortunately they do not fit the Fulvia wishbones. I bet they would have lasted a life time if properly greased.
Still, I wish someone would come up with a trick to put the cover back onto the S1 steering joints.
And fortunately those later type top ball joints are still available from Lemfoerder which is a top quality ball joint and steering joint manufacturer.
I heard some time ago, that Alfa Romeo people were also disgusted with the quality of the Frap joints. They got Lemfoerder to remake the joints and their problems disappeared.
The very early Flavia's had very beautiful ball joints. Very large balls. The top one was split in an upper and a lower half with steel balls in between. The steering rotation was thus done with a ball bearing. The cups were beautifully machined out of brass. With a thick piece of high quality rubber the whole thing was then assembled into the wishbone, I suspect with shims to remove any play.
The bottom ones were as nice but did not have the ball bearing.
The Flaminia has the ball bearing in the lower joint as the weight of the car rests on the lower wishbone. I do occasionally hear RR people boast about the RR being the only car with a ball bearing being incorporated inside the suspension joints. Well, Flaminia's and early Flavia's did have that too. I have a set of the Flavia ones. Unfortunately they do not fit the Fulvia wishbones. I bet they would have lasted a life time if properly greased.
Still, I wish someone would come up with a trick to put the cover back onto the S1 steering joints.
Re: Subframe removal
Good evening boys,
I had the job done today and my Fulvia is a bare chassis suspended on stays. This is how we did it:
Please remember that the rear axle was off.
Step 1: Car is lifted by 2 persons from rr bumper brackets and pushed forward about 5 metres.
Step 2: Subframe bolts removed and wooden blocks placed under front part of subframe.
Step 3: Car is lifted off subframe by 4 persons; 2 from rr bumper brackets and the other 2 from the front wheel arches.
Step 4: Car is moved backwards by the same 4 persons while another 4 persons placed the stays underneath the jacking points.
Step5: Subframe is rolled to workshop area.
As you can see it takes 8 persons to do the job SAFELY but I would rather have the rr axle on it there had to be a next time as the job can be done easily by 3 persons.
Thanks for the advice. I hope someone will benefit from my experience!
Manuel from Malta.
I had the job done today and my Fulvia is a bare chassis suspended on stays. This is how we did it:
Please remember that the rear axle was off.
Step 1: Car is lifted by 2 persons from rr bumper brackets and pushed forward about 5 metres.
Step 2: Subframe bolts removed and wooden blocks placed under front part of subframe.
Step 3: Car is lifted off subframe by 4 persons; 2 from rr bumper brackets and the other 2 from the front wheel arches.
Step 4: Car is moved backwards by the same 4 persons while another 4 persons placed the stays underneath the jacking points.
Step5: Subframe is rolled to workshop area.
As you can see it takes 8 persons to do the job SAFELY but I would rather have the rr axle on it there had to be a next time as the job can be done easily by 3 persons.
Thanks for the advice. I hope someone will benefit from my experience!
Manuel from Malta.
Re: Subframe removal
You are fortunate that you have a strong car.
The Fulvia is very weak when the subframe has been removed. The correct way to lift the car is as I described: place a plank underneath reaching across to each sill with a trollley jack aligned as closely as possible longtitudinally wih the car. The car can be lifted on this plank with a trolley jack.
this way no strain is placed on the weak scuttle area.
Paul
The Fulvia is very weak when the subframe has been removed. The correct way to lift the car is as I described: place a plank underneath reaching across to each sill with a trollley jack aligned as closely as possible longtitudinally wih the car. The car can be lifted on this plank with a trolley jack.
this way no strain is placed on the weak scuttle area.
Paul