Good to see that I was wrong in thinking you might not be visiting the site, Jean. I knew you'd be able to clear up some of the mystery. It's interesting that the engine bellhousing for the berlina was different than for the PF coupe, because my PF coupe housing is definitely different than this one. Maybe it was a 2.5 versus 2.8 change.
Donbay, I second Jean's comments about Zagato seats. The ones I had on a Fulvia Sport did a superb job of holding me in place in turns and also damping out road shocks. The PF coupe seats are attractive looking but inhibiting to the driver.
As far as matching numbers, it was pretty rare for chassis and engine numbers to actually match since 823.00 engines were going into four different models of car and 823.10 engines were going into three different models, and I'd tend to view actual matching numbers nowadays with suspicion, but it WOULD be nice to have numbers that correspond to the actual model of the car and the variant of the engine presented to the observer.
Rare engine in the market?
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donbay
Rare engine in the market?
Thanks Randy for informing the name of Jean.
I found his name on this forum in the other category, then, I sent him an e-mail
for our questions.
He gave me good information.
I appreciate your information.
Donbay
I found his name on this forum in the other category, then, I sent him an e-mail
for our questions.
He gave me good information.
I appreciate your information.
Donbay
-
George
Re: Rare engine in the market?
Hello everyone
Indeed a most interesting discussion! Just shows the wide variety of cars and in particular of after market modifications. If you want to find out what Lancia originally delivered to Zagato you should enquire with the Fiat/Lancia Registro Storico - we've discussed this subject elsewhere on the Flaminia-Forum and I believe someone recently got an answer very quickly. I wrote to them back in 1997 and got very detailed information on my Touring bodied cars and rather little for Zagato. The only thing they knew about my Supersport was the date of production. I am happy to send you a copy of the letter if you are interested.
As to the seats they look quite correct to me, and in my opinion they are not early Coupé seats - these are wider (at least I would say so judging from my own photos with those on your website) and have a different pattern to the stitching.
And I agree with Randy on rare matching numbers: On my Supersport we come very close with chassis no. 2078 and engine no. 2077, but on all other cars I know of there are quite differing numbers for the reason mentioned by Randy. One interesting note: I have recently discovered that the 1960 Coupé I own has matching numbers (however not so in the car's original papers nor in the warranty certificate). Sometimes in the 60's she was upgraded from a single carb 2,5 to a 2,8 with (unusual) 3C setup and in this operation must have gotten a brand new block to which the same number as that of the chassis was assigned.
Donbay: Another aspect which might help to clarify the history and/or later modifications. Does the gearbox carry numbers on the left side? There should not only be a small blue plate identifying the gearbox type (e.g. tipo 823.00, i.e. the same as the chassis prefix) and the gearbox no. ranging from a one to four digit number (this number - again except for Zagato - was also included in the information by the Registro!) but also the gearing ratio. I don't have the info for a 824.03 car on hand right now, but it could be something like 13 x 47 (correct for a 823.10, i.e. Convertibile Touring, or 12 x 47 for a 823.00, i.e. Coupé 2,5, or something in that range).
In any case, any Flaminia has at all times been a very special and individual car, and the very nice example we are discussing here is the best proof for this!
Best regards, George
Indeed a most interesting discussion! Just shows the wide variety of cars and in particular of after market modifications. If you want to find out what Lancia originally delivered to Zagato you should enquire with the Fiat/Lancia Registro Storico - we've discussed this subject elsewhere on the Flaminia-Forum and I believe someone recently got an answer very quickly. I wrote to them back in 1997 and got very detailed information on my Touring bodied cars and rather little for Zagato. The only thing they knew about my Supersport was the date of production. I am happy to send you a copy of the letter if you are interested.
As to the seats they look quite correct to me, and in my opinion they are not early Coupé seats - these are wider (at least I would say so judging from my own photos with those on your website) and have a different pattern to the stitching.
And I agree with Randy on rare matching numbers: On my Supersport we come very close with chassis no. 2078 and engine no. 2077, but on all other cars I know of there are quite differing numbers for the reason mentioned by Randy. One interesting note: I have recently discovered that the 1960 Coupé I own has matching numbers (however not so in the car's original papers nor in the warranty certificate). Sometimes in the 60's she was upgraded from a single carb 2,5 to a 2,8 with (unusual) 3C setup and in this operation must have gotten a brand new block to which the same number as that of the chassis was assigned.
Donbay: Another aspect which might help to clarify the history and/or later modifications. Does the gearbox carry numbers on the left side? There should not only be a small blue plate identifying the gearbox type (e.g. tipo 823.00, i.e. the same as the chassis prefix) and the gearbox no. ranging from a one to four digit number (this number - again except for Zagato - was also included in the information by the Registro!) but also the gearing ratio. I don't have the info for a 824.03 car on hand right now, but it could be something like 13 x 47 (correct for a 823.10, i.e. Convertibile Touring, or 12 x 47 for a 823.00, i.e. Coupé 2,5, or something in that range).
In any case, any Flaminia has at all times been a very special and individual car, and the very nice example we are discussing here is the best proof for this!
Best regards, George
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laurent nash
Re: Rare engine in the market?
The engine number 823 00-2516 is the original engine of the Flaminia Zagato sport 82400-1380.
This car was made in juin 1960, originally in blue lancia with brown leather.
The original gerarbox is may be 824 00- 442 , but I am not sure of this.
You can check your gearbox number.
I think that this car have been modified later.
Best regards.
This car was made in juin 1960, originally in blue lancia with brown leather.
The original gerarbox is may be 824 00- 442 , but I am not sure of this.
You can check your gearbox number.
I think that this car have been modified later.
Best regards.
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laurent nash
Re: Rare engine in the market?
Dear mister,
I have checked in my own documents, at the beginning the Flaminia engine was equipped with a mecanic fuel pump which is on the aluminium plug seen on your picture N°5, but after this pump have been change for an electric pump and the plug disappeared on the block. It 's not a mysterious plug, but an old block !! ( see on the tavola 3 of the spare parts catalogue and on tavola 14 and 15 for the pumps )
About the propeller shaft on thr picture 3, I think is coming from a Touring GTL ( 826140 type ), I have a similar propeller shaft in my garage.
About the Lancia mark on the front grille, on the berlina the Lancia mark is bigger than the others flaminia ( Touring and Zagato )
The differences on the front of the car, are very common, because many previous owners of this type of car have ordered a new form with original variants ( as unusual turn light or bigger fog ) , often because it was difficult to find the original parts!
About the wheelbase, all the Touring and Zagato ( included Supersport) have the same ( 2520mm),
for the others , you have 2600 mm for Touring GTL, 2750 mm for Coupé PF, 2850 mm for Berlina
My conclusions are this car have been modified by the previous owners about mechanic and body, but it's not a race car or "muscle" car.
I have checked in my own documents, at the beginning the Flaminia engine was equipped with a mecanic fuel pump which is on the aluminium plug seen on your picture N°5, but after this pump have been change for an electric pump and the plug disappeared on the block. It 's not a mysterious plug, but an old block !! ( see on the tavola 3 of the spare parts catalogue and on tavola 14 and 15 for the pumps )
About the propeller shaft on thr picture 3, I think is coming from a Touring GTL ( 826140 type ), I have a similar propeller shaft in my garage.
About the Lancia mark on the front grille, on the berlina the Lancia mark is bigger than the others flaminia ( Touring and Zagato )
The differences on the front of the car, are very common, because many previous owners of this type of car have ordered a new form with original variants ( as unusual turn light or bigger fog ) , often because it was difficult to find the original parts!
About the wheelbase, all the Touring and Zagato ( included Supersport) have the same ( 2520mm),
for the others , you have 2600 mm for Touring GTL, 2750 mm for Coupé PF, 2850 mm for Berlina
My conclusions are this car have been modified by the previous owners about mechanic and body, but it's not a race car or "muscle" car.
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donbay
Rare engine in the market?
Many thanks for your information, Mr. laurent nash.
We checked the gearbox number. It is exactly what you mentioned, 82400-442.
Also, the original body color was indeed blue.
However, to fit the long aluminium snout on the gearbox, the aluminum casing has to
be originally casted. Therefore, we suppose this gearbox with a long aluminium snout
was originally produced by Lancia or modified by Zagato.
We checked the gearbox number. It is exactly what you mentioned, 82400-442.
Also, the original body color was indeed blue.
However, to fit the long aluminium snout on the gearbox, the aluminum casing has to
be originally casted. Therefore, we suppose this gearbox with a long aluminium snout
was originally produced by Lancia or modified by Zagato.
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laurent nash
Re: Rare engine in the market?
Hello,
I don't agree with you about the chassis numbers, for me actually :
The 824 00 is, in the first serie of Flaminia, common for the Touring coupé and the standard Zagato sport coupé.
Some zagatos prépared for compétition have a 824 02 chassis number ( I am sure of this for 7 of them, but not for all ). One was for sale, in Italy few years ago, and I have seen the official registration.
The 824 03 is very rare , found on 3 or 4 zagatos; usually, in the Lancia terminology , odd numbers are for RHD ( Right Hand Drive ) car : I think it's also good is this case because one car was for sale in Switzerland with this number 824 03 and was mentionned by the seller as RHD ( but I haven't seen the car ).
If you have any contradictory information, I'l be glad to know it.
Best regards.
I don't agree with you about the chassis numbers, for me actually :
The 824 00 is, in the first serie of Flaminia, common for the Touring coupé and the standard Zagato sport coupé.
Some zagatos prépared for compétition have a 824 02 chassis number ( I am sure of this for 7 of them, but not for all ). One was for sale, in Italy few years ago, and I have seen the official registration.
The 824 03 is very rare , found on 3 or 4 zagatos; usually, in the Lancia terminology , odd numbers are for RHD ( Right Hand Drive ) car : I think it's also good is this case because one car was for sale in Switzerland with this number 824 03 and was mentionned by the seller as RHD ( but I haven't seen the car ).
If you have any contradictory information, I'l be glad to know it.
Best regards.
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donbay
Rare engine in the market?
Thanks for your information.
The chassis number, engine number, gearbox number and original body color were identical as you mentioned. So, this car was produced in 1960 by Lancia as per your own documents.
The first registration in Switzerland was in 1962 as the registration slip showed.
May be, a previous owner ( only 1 owner exists before the current owner) modeified this car to be the competition Flaminia (824 02 chassis number) closer and closer, and wanted to drive it on the street.
However, the bell housing is directly bolted with the cylinder block. The end of cylinder block has
a big flange to accept the bell housing.
The long aluminium snout is directly bolted on the clutch casing. The Clutch casing has also a big
flange to bolt the long aluminium snout.
May be, these cylider block and clutch casing were specially casted in order to use the short prop.shaft.
The cylinder block was changed to accept the bell housing, therefore, no engine number is died on it.
The chassis number, engine number, gearbox number and original body color were identical as you mentioned. So, this car was produced in 1960 by Lancia as per your own documents.
The first registration in Switzerland was in 1962 as the registration slip showed.
May be, a previous owner ( only 1 owner exists before the current owner) modeified this car to be the competition Flaminia (824 02 chassis number) closer and closer, and wanted to drive it on the street.
However, the bell housing is directly bolted with the cylinder block. The end of cylinder block has
a big flange to accept the bell housing.
The long aluminium snout is directly bolted on the clutch casing. The Clutch casing has also a big
flange to bolt the long aluminium snout.
May be, these cylider block and clutch casing were specially casted in order to use the short prop.shaft.
The cylinder block was changed to accept the bell housing, therefore, no engine number is died on it.
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Randy Adams
Re: Rare engine in the market?
I don't understand, Donbay. All of the Flaminia engines and clutch housings have large flanges. In the case of the engine on a normal short-chassis car, the large flange is covered by a light aluminum bowl-shaped piece with an opening for the driveshaft flange. In the case of the clutch, the casting mounted to the flange is still heavy aluminum but simply isn't nearly as long as the one on your car. I'm sure both your engine crankcase casting and the clutch housing casting are standard Lancia production items.
Laurent, you might be right about the chassis numbers for the Touring and Zagato cars but I got my information from my Lancia parts catalogue. According to it, the GT (Touring) was designated 824.00, 824.10 and 826.138 depending on whether it was a single carb 2.5, or a 3C 2.5 or a 3C 2.8. The convertible was designated 824.04, 824.14 or 826.134, again depending on whether it was a single carb 2.5, or a 3C 2.5 or a 3C 2.8. The Sport was designated 824.03, 824.13 and 826.132, also depending on whether it was a single carb 2.5, or a 3C 2.5 or a 3C 2.8. And, finally, the Super Sport was designated 826.232. Could the Lancia parts book be wrong? I guess so, but I usually expect Lancia to be pretty careful with their information.
Laurent, you might be right about the chassis numbers for the Touring and Zagato cars but I got my information from my Lancia parts catalogue. According to it, the GT (Touring) was designated 824.00, 824.10 and 826.138 depending on whether it was a single carb 2.5, or a 3C 2.5 or a 3C 2.8. The convertible was designated 824.04, 824.14 or 826.134, again depending on whether it was a single carb 2.5, or a 3C 2.5 or a 3C 2.8. The Sport was designated 824.03, 824.13 and 826.132, also depending on whether it was a single carb 2.5, or a 3C 2.5 or a 3C 2.8. And, finally, the Super Sport was designated 826.232. Could the Lancia parts book be wrong? I guess so, but I usually expect Lancia to be pretty careful with their information.
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donbay
Rare engine in the market?
Thanks for your information, Randy.
I realize a light aluminum bowl-shaped piece bolted on the cylinder block and the long aluminium snout on the clutch housing.
Which model originally has these aliminum cases? We have heard that Flaminia Zagato usually does not have these cases.
I realize a light aluminum bowl-shaped piece bolted on the cylinder block and the long aluminium snout on the clutch housing.
Which model originally has these aliminum cases? We have heard that Flaminia Zagato usually does not have these cases.