Hi everyone
Help please. I am in the process of restoring a series 1 Fulvia Ralle S which when i bought the car many years ago was without an engine. Moving on 20 years and the car is in the final stages of its restoration but the engine i have aquired for it is a series 1 bottom half mated to a series 2 block. Engine has had about an hour and a half run time since its full rebuild and sounds fantastic. Downside is the original dynamo does not fit + i wanted more amps available. I have sourced a Nissan Denzo alternator (with integral regulator producing 65amps) which just fits after modifying the drip tray. Has anyone wired an alternator up? My electrical skills are minimal. I have run the main cable from the B+ post on the alternator to the starter solenoid and then from the solenoid directly to the battery positive via the 'thick' cable. I know that of the two remaining alternator connections one of the smaller wires runs to the ignition switch but I'm clueless as to how to wire it all in to the existing loom. Any help would be greatly appreciated if someone has done this before. I have a copy of the wiring loom that I have been using as a guide for the car. Obviously the dynamo and voltage regulator have been removed.
Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
Re: Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
Hi Folks,
After a very 'testing' afternoon chasing around the wiring loom I've come to the conclusion that I am out of my depth regarding an alternator wiring setup, mainly due to the original loom being suited to a dynamo/regulator. I feel that it may be best to seek the help of a professional auto electrician unless someone is able to help me with a wiring diagram. I feel my skills are fine for simple wiring but this afternoon has proved that my basic knowledge is surpassed. I have already been advised to use relays as the original loom may not be suitable regarding an alternator. Appreciate any thoughts people may have.
Regards
Nick.
After a very 'testing' afternoon chasing around the wiring loom I've come to the conclusion that I am out of my depth regarding an alternator wiring setup, mainly due to the original loom being suited to a dynamo/regulator. I feel that it may be best to seek the help of a professional auto electrician unless someone is able to help me with a wiring diagram. I feel my skills are fine for simple wiring but this afternoon has proved that my basic knowledge is surpassed. I have already been advised to use relays as the original loom may not be suitable regarding an alternator. Appreciate any thoughts people may have.
Regards
Nick.
Re: Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
It is not too difficult. My phone is just not the best tool to reply. I will try tomorrow.
Re: Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
Some notes beforehand.
I have seen Fulvia’s with a burned out engine bay as the result of mistakes made while converting from dynamo to alternator or from 35 Amp alternator to 65 Amp or bigger alternators. Your idea of going to a specialist is a good idea. If you decide to try your self it is at your own risk.
The single V belt is only reliable if driving dynamo’s / alternators up to 45 Amp. The alternator will generate the current it is asked to deliver by the load with a maximum of 65 Amps. On a S1 Fulvia the big current users are the head lights and a flat battery. If you limit the maximum of head lights that can be on to 4 bulbs of 55 Watt max you will be ok. Just avoid too many flat battery situations. It is OK for the V belt to occasionally handle the forces to deliver 65 Amp. It should not deliver more than 45 Amp continuously.
Usually alternators with built in regulator have three electrical connections:
1) minus / ground. This is the housing. If you need a wire to connect it electrically to the engine, use a wire capable of handling the rated output current.
2) Output / + 12V (B+). Use a wire capable of handling the rated output current.
3) Dashboard light. This is needed to start the electrical field in the alternator and serves as an indicator to check if the alternator is functioning.
Some alternators made by Denso have a 4th connection for a wire coming from the ignition switch. I don’t know what that wire does. Some alternator shops modify the alternator to get rid of this wire. You may also try connecting it to the + terminal of the ignition coil. That one comes from the ignition switch but may have too much voltage spikes from the ignition. Alternatively you try to get an alternator which does not need this wire.
The minus output from the alternator is the housing of the alternator. It has to be electrically connected to the engine. If you have the standard S2 mounting system this may not be the case. The long bolt fastening it to the cylinder block runs through rubbers. The bottom end of the adjust bracket swivels around a plastic bush. You have to put a wire capable of carrying 65 Amps between alternator and engine. On the alternator it is usually connected to the M8 adjust bolt. On the engine it is connected to one of the two M6 bolts fastening the cover of the auxiliary shaft.
The B+ of the alternator can be connected to the solenoid of the starter as you did. Just make sure the wire can handle 65 Amps.
There is a small black wire in the wiring loom which connected the original voltage regulator to the field current terminal (DF) of the dynamo. You can connect this wire to the terminal on the alternator where the dashboard light should be connected to. At the side of the old regulator this wire is connected to the wire coming from the dashboard light as described below.
Take the old voltage regulator out. On its input side (the side connected to the dynamo) it had three wires:
1) Thick red. This wire is no longer connected. Remove the wire completely or make sure that it is not connected at the side of the alternator either.
2) Thick black wire bolted to the case of the regulator. On the dynamo side it has an M5 eye. This wire was used to connect minus (housing) of dynamo to the body of the car. You can still use this wire to connect the alternator housing to the car body. Screw it to the alternator and to the car body where the regulator used to sit. Personally I would not use that wire and remove it because of the possibly higher currents under fault conditions. See below for better minus connection from engine to car body.
3) The thin black wire originally coming from the field terminal (DF) of the dynamo. This one is now connected to the lamp terminal (D+) on the alternator. On the regulator side connect it to the thin black wire that was originally connected to terminal 61 on the output side of the regulator.
On the output side of the regulator are three terminals.
1) 9 mm spade with a thick red wire going to the fuse box in the interior
2) 9 mm spade with a thick red wire going to the plus of the battery to charge the battery.
3) A 6,3 mm spade probably marked 61 with the small black wire going to the dashboard lamp. As explained above you now connect that wire to the thin black wire on the input side.
Connect the two thick red wires to each other so you have effectively a thick red wire running from the plus of the battery to the fuse box.
By connecting the black wires described in points 3) above to each other you have effectively a wire from the dashboard light to the alternator.
If you decide not to use the original thick black wire to connect the housing of the alternator to the car body, it is a good idea to put a very thick wire or braided ground strip from one of the four bolts of the engine side support to somewhere near the front of the RH inner wheel arch.
I have seen Fulvia’s with a burned out engine bay as the result of mistakes made while converting from dynamo to alternator or from 35 Amp alternator to 65 Amp or bigger alternators. Your idea of going to a specialist is a good idea. If you decide to try your self it is at your own risk.
The single V belt is only reliable if driving dynamo’s / alternators up to 45 Amp. The alternator will generate the current it is asked to deliver by the load with a maximum of 65 Amps. On a S1 Fulvia the big current users are the head lights and a flat battery. If you limit the maximum of head lights that can be on to 4 bulbs of 55 Watt max you will be ok. Just avoid too many flat battery situations. It is OK for the V belt to occasionally handle the forces to deliver 65 Amp. It should not deliver more than 45 Amp continuously.
Usually alternators with built in regulator have three electrical connections:
1) minus / ground. This is the housing. If you need a wire to connect it electrically to the engine, use a wire capable of handling the rated output current.
2) Output / + 12V (B+). Use a wire capable of handling the rated output current.
3) Dashboard light. This is needed to start the electrical field in the alternator and serves as an indicator to check if the alternator is functioning.
Some alternators made by Denso have a 4th connection for a wire coming from the ignition switch. I don’t know what that wire does. Some alternator shops modify the alternator to get rid of this wire. You may also try connecting it to the + terminal of the ignition coil. That one comes from the ignition switch but may have too much voltage spikes from the ignition. Alternatively you try to get an alternator which does not need this wire.
The minus output from the alternator is the housing of the alternator. It has to be electrically connected to the engine. If you have the standard S2 mounting system this may not be the case. The long bolt fastening it to the cylinder block runs through rubbers. The bottom end of the adjust bracket swivels around a plastic bush. You have to put a wire capable of carrying 65 Amps between alternator and engine. On the alternator it is usually connected to the M8 adjust bolt. On the engine it is connected to one of the two M6 bolts fastening the cover of the auxiliary shaft.
The B+ of the alternator can be connected to the solenoid of the starter as you did. Just make sure the wire can handle 65 Amps.
There is a small black wire in the wiring loom which connected the original voltage regulator to the field current terminal (DF) of the dynamo. You can connect this wire to the terminal on the alternator where the dashboard light should be connected to. At the side of the old regulator this wire is connected to the wire coming from the dashboard light as described below.
Take the old voltage regulator out. On its input side (the side connected to the dynamo) it had three wires:
1) Thick red. This wire is no longer connected. Remove the wire completely or make sure that it is not connected at the side of the alternator either.
2) Thick black wire bolted to the case of the regulator. On the dynamo side it has an M5 eye. This wire was used to connect minus (housing) of dynamo to the body of the car. You can still use this wire to connect the alternator housing to the car body. Screw it to the alternator and to the car body where the regulator used to sit. Personally I would not use that wire and remove it because of the possibly higher currents under fault conditions. See below for better minus connection from engine to car body.
3) The thin black wire originally coming from the field terminal (DF) of the dynamo. This one is now connected to the lamp terminal (D+) on the alternator. On the regulator side connect it to the thin black wire that was originally connected to terminal 61 on the output side of the regulator.
On the output side of the regulator are three terminals.
1) 9 mm spade with a thick red wire going to the fuse box in the interior
2) 9 mm spade with a thick red wire going to the plus of the battery to charge the battery.
3) A 6,3 mm spade probably marked 61 with the small black wire going to the dashboard lamp. As explained above you now connect that wire to the thin black wire on the input side.
Connect the two thick red wires to each other so you have effectively a thick red wire running from the plus of the battery to the fuse box.
By connecting the black wires described in points 3) above to each other you have effectively a wire from the dashboard light to the alternator.
If you decide not to use the original thick black wire to connect the housing of the alternator to the car body, it is a good idea to put a very thick wire or braided ground strip from one of the four bolts of the engine side support to somewhere near the front of the RH inner wheel arch.
Re: Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
Dear Huib,
First of all thank you very much for your time in compiling so much information, very impressive and immensely helpful. There is a large amount of information which I will print out and digest in a methodical manner.
The first thing that strikes me like a 'thunderbolt' is the alternator earthing. I had completely forgotten about the rubber inserts on the mounting bolt so obviously the alternator was not earthed!!
I will take on board your valid point about using the correct wire rating. The last thing I would want is a fire as I have spent many hours rebuilding this fantastic car for myself and my children (when they are old enough to drive).
The headlights are also a concern as I have heard of problems associated with wiring that is not fit for purpose when using an alternator.
Interestingly I have recently met another Fulvia owner, local to myself, who is also converting his car to a modern alternator. I know he will be very interested with the information you have outlined as it seemed it was blind leading the blind!
Once again a big thank you and I will now proceed to digest everthing you have outlined. I will let you know the outcome on this topic as I'm sure there will be many others interested in a similiar conversion.
Regards
Nick.
First of all thank you very much for your time in compiling so much information, very impressive and immensely helpful. There is a large amount of information which I will print out and digest in a methodical manner.
The first thing that strikes me like a 'thunderbolt' is the alternator earthing. I had completely forgotten about the rubber inserts on the mounting bolt so obviously the alternator was not earthed!!
I will take on board your valid point about using the correct wire rating. The last thing I would want is a fire as I have spent many hours rebuilding this fantastic car for myself and my children (when they are old enough to drive).
The headlights are also a concern as I have heard of problems associated with wiring that is not fit for purpose when using an alternator.
Interestingly I have recently met another Fulvia owner, local to myself, who is also converting his car to a modern alternator. I know he will be very interested with the information you have outlined as it seemed it was blind leading the blind!
Once again a big thank you and I will now proceed to digest everthing you have outlined. I will let you know the outcome on this topic as I'm sure there will be many others interested in a similiar conversion.
Regards
Nick.
Grounding
Grounding is often forgotten during restoration even by experienced engineers.
There are four units on S2/3 and 3 units on S1 Fulvia's which are in principle electrically insulated from each other. I say in principle because there may be "accidental" ground connections such as choke cables.
1) Engine + gearbox. I consider this the central ground.
2) Subframe. It is insulated from the engine + gearbox through rubbers. It needs a grounding wire as the claxons are mounted on the subframe.
3) Car body. It is insulated from the subframe and engine + gearbox through rubbers.
4) Alternator on S2/S3. It is mounted in rubber / plastic. The dynamo on the S1 Fulvia is not insulated from the engine.
There are four units on S2/3 and 3 units on S1 Fulvia's which are in principle electrically insulated from each other. I say in principle because there may be "accidental" ground connections such as choke cables.
1) Engine + gearbox. I consider this the central ground.
2) Subframe. It is insulated from the engine + gearbox through rubbers. It needs a grounding wire as the claxons are mounted on the subframe.
3) Car body. It is insulated from the subframe and engine + gearbox through rubbers.
4) Alternator on S2/S3. It is mounted in rubber / plastic. The dynamo on the S1 Fulvia is not insulated from the engine.
Re: Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
Hi everybody
I am interested in this discussion, 2 years ago I intended to fit an alternator on my Rallye S serie 1,
Some years ago I had got a Ducellier which I fitted with the specific 2 belts pulley (I wish to keep the permanent belted fan) This Ducellier has been set as new by a professional electrician.
But I had to stop my project because of 2 problems :
1) the S1 normal engine bloc has a specific long moulding to receive the dynamo fixation bolt so it seems difficult to install the alternator fixation;
2) even if the Ducellier could be set in place, it is too big and comes in contact with the mechanical fuel pump (my car is now fitted with an electric one, so this aspect could be solved)
So I had given up, and let in place the dynamo until now.
Your discussion wakes up my idea, an alternator seems interesting because when using the car, the speed is frequently low, especially in town, so the RPM is low and an alternator is probably more efficient.
I dont know the Denso device, do you have an idea or suggestion that could help ?
Best regards and lots of thanks
Georges
I am interested in this discussion, 2 years ago I intended to fit an alternator on my Rallye S serie 1,
Some years ago I had got a Ducellier which I fitted with the specific 2 belts pulley (I wish to keep the permanent belted fan) This Ducellier has been set as new by a professional electrician.
But I had to stop my project because of 2 problems :
1) the S1 normal engine bloc has a specific long moulding to receive the dynamo fixation bolt so it seems difficult to install the alternator fixation;
2) even if the Ducellier could be set in place, it is too big and comes in contact with the mechanical fuel pump (my car is now fitted with an electric one, so this aspect could be solved)
So I had given up, and let in place the dynamo until now.
Your discussion wakes up my idea, an alternator seems interesting because when using the car, the speed is frequently low, especially in town, so the RPM is low and an alternator is probably more efficient.
I dont know the Denso device, do you have an idea or suggestion that could help ?
Best regards and lots of thanks
Georges
Re: Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
Hi Georges,
You are quite correct about the fuel pump being in close proximity with the alternator. It is very close to the Denso Alternator unit I have fitted (about a 5mm gap after tensioning the belt) + I had to source a series 3 carburettor drip tray and extend the pressed arch by welding in a new metal section. The extended arch just clears the accelerator pump on the solex carburettor.
So far so good. Then as luck would have it I found a fan belt of the correct length in my box of spares. The downside is I have no idea of the make or reference for this fan belt so I am now sourcing a supplier as a future safeguard + I feel a spare is essential. I also did away with the metal fan hence I now only require 1 belt. Not ideal from a purist point of view but with a series 2 block it seemed the best way forward at the time considering I had to find an alternator. I have the wiring all sorted now but I will wait for an auto electrician to do a final check before I start the car. I will also see if I can find a serial number for the Denzo unit and post on the forum if this helps. Huib's step by step wiring outline was excellent and it all went smoothly. I am sure the auto electrician will confirm everything is correct.
Regards
Nick.
You are quite correct about the fuel pump being in close proximity with the alternator. It is very close to the Denso Alternator unit I have fitted (about a 5mm gap after tensioning the belt) + I had to source a series 3 carburettor drip tray and extend the pressed arch by welding in a new metal section. The extended arch just clears the accelerator pump on the solex carburettor.
So far so good. Then as luck would have it I found a fan belt of the correct length in my box of spares. The downside is I have no idea of the make or reference for this fan belt so I am now sourcing a supplier as a future safeguard + I feel a spare is essential. I also did away with the metal fan hence I now only require 1 belt. Not ideal from a purist point of view but with a series 2 block it seemed the best way forward at the time considering I had to find an alternator. I have the wiring all sorted now but I will wait for an auto electrician to do a final check before I start the car. I will also see if I can find a serial number for the Denzo unit and post on the forum if this helps. Huib's step by step wiring outline was excellent and it all went smoothly. I am sure the auto electrician will confirm everything is correct.
Regards
Nick.
Re: Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
Hi Nick, thank you for reply
Interested for any specification of this Denso alternator (I hope there are some numbers stamped or engraved...) but will wait until you confirm everyting is running OK....
As you noted, I am french and do not understand what is the "carburettor drip tray" and "extend the pressed arch"by welding in a new metal section"
So you have drop the mechanic fan and set an electric one ?
Regards; Georges
Interested for any specification of this Denso alternator (I hope there are some numbers stamped or engraved...) but will wait until you confirm everyting is running OK....
As you noted, I am french and do not understand what is the "carburettor drip tray" and "extend the pressed arch"by welding in a new metal section"
So you have drop the mechanic fan and set an electric one ?
Regards; Georges
Re: Alternator conversion - Lancia Fulvia series 1 Ralle S
Hi Georges,
I will contact the company that I purchased the unit from (as it was refurbished) to obtain a reference number for the alternator. All I can confirm is that it's a 65amp Denso unit with a serial number type of 16427 (attached photo) The carburettor tray is the piece of formed metal underneath the Solex carburettors. I had to source a series 3 tray and lengthen the existing formed arch to enable the alternator to fit. I also attach a photo of the alternator fitted although all the wiring has yet to be checked and then routed safely within the engine bay. I expect to have some more information at the end of the week.
Best Wishes
Nick.
I will contact the company that I purchased the unit from (as it was refurbished) to obtain a reference number for the alternator. All I can confirm is that it's a 65amp Denso unit with a serial number type of 16427 (attached photo) The carburettor tray is the piece of formed metal underneath the Solex carburettors. I had to source a series 3 tray and lengthen the existing formed arch to enable the alternator to fit. I also attach a photo of the alternator fitted although all the wiring has yet to be checked and then routed safely within the engine bay. I expect to have some more information at the end of the week.
Best Wishes
Nick.
- Attachments
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- alternator.jpg (197.55 KiB) Viewed 1532 times
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- denso alternator.jpg (119.08 KiB) Viewed 1532 times