Rare engine in the market?

Randy Adams · Unread post by **Randy Adams** » 01 Nov 2006, 17:39

Actually, I forgot that the bellhousings and one-piece propshaft for the Pininfarina car started much earlier than the 2.8 cars. I have a spare 2.5 3B engine which has the bellhousing. I will compare its bellhousing to the one depicted in your photos when I have the chance. Because the Zagato has a shorter wheelbase than the PF coupe, the one-piece propshaft will have to have been made either by cutting a PF shaft or by making up a new one or, maybe, by using one of the shafts from a two-piece propshaft. The various models of Flaminia with their various wheelbases afford a selection of different lenght propshaft sections.

donbay · Unread post by **donbay** » 02 Nov 2006, 00:43

Many thanks Mr. Randy Adams for the information.

Your informaition is very helpful for us. May be, your guess is correct.

We greatly appreciate your information.

donbay · Unread post by **donbay** » 02 Nov 2006, 01:13

Mr.Randy Adams ;

We have the following question. If you understand, please inform
your comment.

On our Zagato, there is no engine number, but the chassis number
died on an aluminum plate rivetted in the engine bay.
The original Flaminia Zagato is supposed to have a chassis
number died on a right front wing beneath a bonnet, but, no die on it
although the registration slip indicates the following numbers.

Chassis #82400-1380
Engine #82300-2516

We guess that a original chassis number was not died by our Zagato
when released from Zagato, then the above chassis number was died
on an aluminum plate to register in Switzerland.
For the above engine number on the registration slip, we do not
understand why this number is printed and no died number on
the engine.
Actually our Flaminia is lawfully registered
in Japan with the above registration slip after the engine number to be
died on it in Japan.

Randy Adams · Unread post by **Randy Adams** » 03 Nov 2006, 03:30

Hello again Donbay. I have had the chance to look at my bellhousing from a 2.5 3B Flaminia (Pininfarina coupe) engine. The part in my garage does not have the inspection plate that your bellhousing has. The bellhousing in my garage also has two sturdy reinforcement webs on each side which your bellhousing does not have. So your bellhousing is not a standard Flaminia PF coupe part. Somebody was creative.

The chassis number and engine number reflected on the plate in your engine bay are interesting. Both numbers depict a single carburetor sports Flaminia. The "824.00" chassis number normally goes to a single carburetor Touring coupe. The single carburetor Sport (Zagato) should have "824.03" as a chassis number. It is conceivable that a Touring chassis was re-assigned to a Zagato but I would expect the number to be changed to conform to this. I confess that this causes me some concern; this may not be the original plate for the car. It is possible that the number is not found on the right fender only because it has been covered over with body filler. You might want to inspect very closely to see if there is any evidence of body filler in the channel surrounding the engine opening. But, to be honest, I'm not so confident that Zagato were very rigorous about such details as embossing a chassis number. In other words, your car may have simply never had the number embossed onto it.

The lack of a number on the engine might only mean that a previous owner purchased a spare cylinder block from the factory. I am not sure if Lancia put engine numbers on spare engine block castings. I suspect that they did not, but only applied numbers to fully built engines. Of course, it is also possible that the number on your engine was ground off but that seems unlikely.

The best expert of Flaminias on this site is Jean de Barsy in Belgium, but I think he might have sold off all his cars and he might not be visiting the forum. He might have some ideas about the numbers.

Jean de BARSY · Unread post by **Jean de BARSY** » 03 Nov 2006, 09:06

Dear Sir,

I've read your messages about this very intriguing Flaminia. There are however many possibilities. I need to check the details later, but it is possible to have an engine with a longer bellhousing attached to it. A sedan for example is fitted with an additional damper just behind the engine, which means the bellhousing is longer. Then you have several types of gearboxes too. Short ones and longer ones. All these combinations require a specific propshaft. I guess it's possible to connect a "long gearbox" to a "long engine" if you have the propshaft adapted.

So what we should need are detailed pics of the undercarriage showing the gearbox and the bellhousing. As Mr. Adams wrote earlier, Zagato was not very meticulous and all "combinations" would be possible.

The correct numbers should be as folows:

Flaminia Sport 1001/2067 824.03 823.00 2.5 single carb
Flaminia Sport 3C 3001/3856 824.13 823.10 2.5 3 double Webers
Flaminia Sport 3C 2.8 1001/1070 826.132 RHD 826.100 2.8 3 double Webers
826.133 LHD
Flaminia Super Sport 3C 2.8 2001/2150 826.232 826.200 2.8 3 double Webers

Now it's impossible to draw a line in these chassisnumbers, as some cars received "updated" noses or rears after an accident which makes it hard to tell even what model it is. The year it was first registered is not relevant either as many remained unsold for years. Engine and gearboxes could be swapped too, which is not unthinkable considering these cars are 40 years old or more now.

If I had a Flaminia Zagato, I would like to have "matching numbers". Stories about racing engines installed etc are always possible, but probably there's a much more simple explanation. If the car was used as a rally or race car, broken engines, gearboxes and accidents might have happened with new or other parts installed as a result from this.

Could you mail some pictures?

Kind regards,

Jean de BARSY

Jean de BARSY · Unread post by **Jean de BARSY** » 03 Nov 2006, 09:15

Hello Donbay,

I just saw the picture of the bellhousing. It's exactly the same type as I had on my 2.8 Flaminia Sedan. If you unbolt the cover, you'll see a big "Lancia type" retaining nut for that extra damper. As this is what I call a "long engine" you need a short propshaft too. Has your gearbox a long aluminium snout pointing towards the engine? If so it is a "abnormal" combination requiring a very short (homemade?) propshaft.

Jean de BARSY · Unread post by **Jean de BARSY** » 03 Nov 2006, 09:32

I just saw the whole range of pics. First of all I must say I'm very impressed with the qaulity of your work. The propshaft is standard (Lancia always made very fine and beautifully engineered parts). The Borrani rim is a nice period accessory. These rims were used as standard on the Touring bodied Maserati 3500 GT.

At first sight I'd say the car is a mix of Flaminia Sedan parts but I agree there are some oddities like that flange on the side of the engine. I never had a 2500 engine, but couldn't it be where the mechanical fuel pump once was? Your car is certainly "upgraded" with an electrical BENDIX fuel pump. If so, the mechanical one is removed, and the hole closed with a plate which is often done to prevent vapor lock. There should be a steel shield in front of it too, but that has been removed as it had no use anymore.

If the engine number is gone (as to prevent identifying it), you should check the corners of the surface where it should be.If these sharp edges and corners are blunt, you know it has been modified. That Lancia sold engine blocks with no numbers on it is probable too, as the engine number needed to match the italian paperwork.

Anyway, it's a beautiful car and don't be disappointed if it has no "racy bits". As we all wrote before, Zagato is known for his "oddities" in the production line, and this makes your car special too.

Keep her in shape!

Kind regards,

Jean de BARSY

donbay · Unread post by **donbay** » 03 Nov 2006, 10:27

Thanks Mr. Jean de Barsy for your information.

Yes, the gearbox(transaxle) has an aluminum snout as you mention.
Please see the 3rd photos.

http://www.photocabi.net/donbay/

A length of the prop.shaft is 75cm. It is very short.
Please refer to the 9th photo.

Jean de BARSY · Unread post by **Jean de BARSY** » 03 Nov 2006, 11:04

Another thing I noticed is the shape of the seats. These look like the ones used in a 2.5 CoupÃ© which must lack lateral support when the Zagato is driven on a twisty road. Also the steering wheel is not correct but could be a period Nardi (anyway it all looks very good).

The handbrake is a wonderful thing. The handbrake should be under the dashboard (a strange and not so happy location) but this one looks marvelous on this car.

Another thing that's nice too but not correct are the tubes in which the ignition wires are located. These tubes are from the Aurelia.

What's a bit more troublesome are the so-called "chassis reinforcements". The inner wheel arches are always a weak spot and yours seem as if they have been repaired, that's all. Nothing wrong with repairing inner wheel arches, but the guy who told you they were "reinforcements for track use" or whatever to back up the racy theory has a wonderful imagination...

I just say what I feel about these oddities, as it seems that "specials" and "ex works cars" are appearing here and there whilst it just an old or classic car that has been kept running by handy mechanics. As it looks different, it needs a "story" to justify it. I have no trouble with that if the job is well done as it seems to the be case here. Wether you believe that story or not doesn't change anything to your car's condition/interest or beauty.

If the seats are originally from a CoupÃ©, I'd change them for the racy Zagato seats which are commonly available now. It looks the part and it's designed by Zagato! I also noticed your Ansa exhausts. Nice items but adapt and fix them well to the body for a stock look. Keep in mind they rust quite quickly from the inside and you'll be forced to change them sooner than you think. If that happens I would have similar pipes remade in stainless steel. My father had 2 double Ansa's on his GT, and it looked awesome (the sound was great too for as far as I remember).

The larger fog lights look great but must be interfering once the bumper is installed (if installed.. I wouldn't install them for the looks, but be careful where and how you park it). It's also convenient as the original Lancia Flaminia fog lights are quite special and hard to find. Even the bulb is very special... Your Lancia shield is normal too. There are several models, but yours should be a metal one, large or small, it doesn't matter, but definitely a metal one.

Can the original Flaminia wheel covers be fixed on your Borrani rims? I don't know if they're exactly the same as used on the Maserati 3500, but I think Mr. Cliffe from Omicron in England has the same wheels on his Super Sport.

What the history of your car may be, it's a beautiful car!

Kind regards,

Jean de BARSY

donbay · Unread post by **donbay** » 03 Nov 2006, 12:12

Many thanks for your additional information, Mr. Jean de Barsy.

The wheel covers on our Flaminia are Lancia original with the name of LANCIA embossed.
My friend changed the exhausts to new ANSA due to already rused.

We are very interested in how much you guess our Flaminia Zagato is in Europian
market. The engine was just rebuilt, 0 mileage running.
Please inform your opinion on retail price in Europe.