Hi again,
Was wondering if anyone could guide me in the right direction (or just laugh for that matter). I recently had a nosy through Guy Crofts book, Tuning the Fiat twin cam engine and it has inspired me.
Although my car is keeping me very busy at the moment with lots of suspension problems, once this is sorted I would like to fit something a bit more pokey than the 1300 currently under the bonnet. I figure it may be a bit more intereresting to source a 2000cc Fiat twin cam from a Thema, Croma or Saab 9000 (lead to believe that its the same engine) rebuild it and fit it to my Delta. Rather than pick up some knackered 1600 from a HF Turbo and have nothing but problems with a Turbo, I figured a normally aspirated engine with resonable capacity would provide good power and reliability for not a lot of cash. Any idea what these engines produce in standard form?
Guy Crofts book will provide all the information required for the engine rebuild but what other parts will I need, driveshafts, hubs, gearbox etc?
Cheers crossanjonathan@hotmail.com/jonathancrossan@hotmail.com
Engine swap
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alan cooper
Re: Engine swap
quite frankly I wouldn't bother the resulting car would be nothing but agravation. You would be better off spending the cash on another car as the technical issues in fitting a large twin cam would doubtless be more complex than would be imagined and don't forget that all your suspension settings etc would probably be unsuitable ,also the thought of the 1300's brakes stopping a 2 litre car is frightening! This kind of project done properly would be expensive even if you did a lot yourself. You would be better off to find a cheap 'grale although obviously buy with due caution or for that matter a nice hf turbo there are still the odd one or two good 'uns about although admittedly very scarce.
The outputs from standard non-turbo twin cams vary but you would be looking in the 120 to 150 range if you have ever looked under a grale bonnet you will realise that a substantial shoehorn is required to fit a two litre engine in although Lancia did fit a normally aspirated one themselves to the prisma integrale which is essentially a booted delta. The saab uses a completely different engine design.
The outputs from standard non-turbo twin cams vary but you would be looking in the 120 to 150 range if you have ever looked under a grale bonnet you will realise that a substantial shoehorn is required to fit a two litre engine in although Lancia did fit a normally aspirated one themselves to the prisma integrale which is essentially a booted delta. The saab uses a completely different engine design.
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J Crossan
Re: Engine swap
Thanks for your reply,
Surely it woundn't be that hard? I know that its relativly easy to slot in a HF Turbo engine and gearbox, if you use the front wishbones and the wiring loom and I was under the impression that the 2000cc engine was in essence the same as the 1600cc other than larger capacity, therefor the weight of the block shouldnt be that different (I already use HF Turbo struts all round) and if Lancia can squeeze a twin cam with a turbo, intercooler and oil cooler etc under the bonnet then surely a standard 2 litre would fit?
The 2000cc exhaust manifold should mate to any 1600 twin cam system and believe it or not the 1300 brakes are excellent, although I could always source the front/rear disc set up up from any 1600.
Dont get me wrong I'm sure you know your stuff but given this info what do you think? I would like a grale but insurance and running costs are huge, my mate has one and he can barely keep it on the road never mind put fuel in it. A 2000cc would provide resonalble power yet be understressed therefor reliable and with no extra bulk of four wheel drive systems fuel cost would be acceptable. I await your thoughts
Cheers JC
Surely it woundn't be that hard? I know that its relativly easy to slot in a HF Turbo engine and gearbox, if you use the front wishbones and the wiring loom and I was under the impression that the 2000cc engine was in essence the same as the 1600cc other than larger capacity, therefor the weight of the block shouldnt be that different (I already use HF Turbo struts all round) and if Lancia can squeeze a twin cam with a turbo, intercooler and oil cooler etc under the bonnet then surely a standard 2 litre would fit?
The 2000cc exhaust manifold should mate to any 1600 twin cam system and believe it or not the 1300 brakes are excellent, although I could always source the front/rear disc set up up from any 1600.
Dont get me wrong I'm sure you know your stuff but given this info what do you think? I would like a grale but insurance and running costs are huge, my mate has one and he can barely keep it on the road never mind put fuel in it. A 2000cc would provide resonalble power yet be understressed therefor reliable and with no extra bulk of four wheel drive systems fuel cost would be acceptable. I await your thoughts
Cheers JC
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alan cooper
Re: Engine swap
I suspect you would find things to be a little more complex as most of the 2 litre engines available would have balancer shafts and so on this will effect the actual size of the engine across the engine bay. Beta engines would be a no go as the cylinder head is the opposite way around with the exhaust at the back inlet at the front (although early deltas had this layout too carb 1600 and carb turbo). my experience with italian cars is nothing is ever that simple even sometimes when looking at other variants of the same model. As regards the grale Lancia have used every possible trick to squeeze the engine in however you are right that a standard 2 litre would not have so much baggage with it. If you try it I would favour a 8 valve as they are more robust and reliable. I suspect that insurance companies would frown upon such a conversion so you may not make much of a saving there. Perhaps I am too much of a purist but I really do honestly think it would not be worth all the effort a 1.6 GTie might be your best compromise if you can find one.
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J Crossan
Re: Engine swap
Someone has suggested Delta 1600 running gear mated to a Stada Abarth 130tc engine and a Delta 1600 GT manifold, what do you reakon.
I appreciate all the purist out there dont like the idea of people messing about with their cars and personally if I had a grale or proper HF Turbo then standard it would remain, but mine a 1990 H plate cost £400 is my pride and joy and is worth nothing to no one other than me, so I figure a standard exterior (which it is) and a more powerful engine will prolong my cars life and stop me buying something faster when I can afford it and sending mine to the scrapper as no one would ever buy it.
I appreciate all the purist out there dont like the idea of people messing about with their cars and personally if I had a grale or proper HF Turbo then standard it would remain, but mine a 1990 H plate cost £400 is my pride and joy and is worth nothing to no one other than me, so I figure a standard exterior (which it is) and a more powerful engine will prolong my cars life and stop me buying something faster when I can afford it and sending mine to the scrapper as no one would ever buy it.
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Steve Matthews
Re: Engine swap
Find a complete Dedra Turbo front end, this will give you big brakes and a limited slip diff. There is no reason why a 2.0 will be any more troublesome that a 1300! The Chroma/Thema are the same but the Saab is not. Also considder a Twin Cam from a Tipe, Tempra, etc... The other option would be to fit a Fiat Uno Turbo as its pretty similar to the 1300LX engine anyway.
How Mr. Crossan, do you sill have that headlight? Email me.
Kind Regards,
Steve Matthews
How Mr. Crossan, do you sill have that headlight? Email me.
Kind Regards,
Steve Matthews
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Leo Capaldi
Re: Engine swap
Hi Jonathan,
I put a Prisma Symbol engine into a 1300 Delta. Had to replace the front wishbones also (best to use the complete front suspension from the Prisma). Definitely worthwhile. Relatively easy to do, the hole for the injection/ignition system cable through the bulkhead is there). I have always thought that the most sensible 2wd Delta would be a 2litre normally aspirated version. I am now doing that using a Dedra engine - but of course the balancer shafts mean that the usual 2wd engine mount at the drivers side cannot be used so I'm having to fit integrale type mountings. I think it will make a nice car, using the Prisma gearbox will give a decent gearing so that it accelerates nicely, although will run out of revs at the top speed (but that is OK).
Simpler arrangement would be to use a Beta 2 litre engine which would accept the standard engine mounting (albeit the GT/Twin Cam type). Halfway solution would be to use a Beta block and a Dedra/Croma head and injection.
Good luck!
I put a Prisma Symbol engine into a 1300 Delta. Had to replace the front wishbones also (best to use the complete front suspension from the Prisma). Definitely worthwhile. Relatively easy to do, the hole for the injection/ignition system cable through the bulkhead is there). I have always thought that the most sensible 2wd Delta would be a 2litre normally aspirated version. I am now doing that using a Dedra engine - but of course the balancer shafts mean that the usual 2wd engine mount at the drivers side cannot be used so I'm having to fit integrale type mountings. I think it will make a nice car, using the Prisma gearbox will give a decent gearing so that it accelerates nicely, although will run out of revs at the top speed (but that is OK).
Simpler arrangement would be to use a Beta 2 litre engine which would accept the standard engine mounting (albeit the GT/Twin Cam type). Halfway solution would be to use a Beta block and a Dedra/Croma head and injection.
Good luck!