S1 engine in S2 body?

[Zanetti]

Hi everyone,

Would a 818.302 S1 engine and 4 speed box fit into an S2 body?

Is the 4 speed box really better than the 5 speed?

Any thoughts and comments would be much appreciated!

Thanks!

[Charles]

It'll fit. There's some details to work out, I think the rear subframe crossmember is different on the S2 to make room for the extend rear end of the box. But maybe the 4 speed fit's without changing this. And then there's a gear change tunnel to be modified......
Why do you you want to do this modification?
Presuming that we're talking about a coupe, the 302 has less power than the 303 engine (though marginally I would ad) and to my knowledge there's nothing wrong with the 5 speed box.
The 302 could also be fitted on the 5 speed box by using the clutch crankcase cover from the S2 engine.

[Zanetti]

I have purchased a reasonably good 302 engine and want to fit it into an S2 body that I have, both the 303 and 302 are 1298cc, I think there's about a 1 or 2 hp difference?

I have heard much talk about how smooth the 4 speed box but have never driven with one...

I suppose I could swap the crankcase cover but I'm really keen to heard about the 4 speed box....

[gamma a.i.]

Lancia must have had some many good reasons to switch to a 5speed for the Fulvia; probably interior noise at speed, economy, top end, lower rpm ... so if it isn't too much hassle swapping things around, go for the better box, says me.

then again, I also have never driven a Fulvia with a 4speed, so what do I know ?

[Ed Levin]

Just like all the "common knowledge" of the series differences (eg., the S2 Girling brakes are much better than the S1 Dunlops), there's more nonsense than truth to the 4-speed / 5-speed question.

There's absolutely no difference in noise at cruising speeds. Both the 4-speed and the 5-speed have a direct top gear--5th gear in the 5-speed is not an overdrive gear. So the gearing's identical in top gear. The 4-speed is an excellent gearbox--very precise engagement and very precise feel. The gate is very narrow, especially compared to the length of the throw with the leva lunga. And the lever itself it very thick in diameter. So if you haven't driven one, it will take a little getting used to. The 5-speed lever works through a transfer tube, and that linkage makes the gear change a little less precise and the gear engagement itself isn't as silky as the 4-speed. But the 5-speed's probably about as good as any 5-speed you've ever driven. So, for me, it comes down to preference about lever placement and movement; I've just never liked the long, angled 4-speed lever as much as the shorter, more vertical 5-speed. But I have no doubt that plenty of fulvisti feel exactly the opposite.

Anyway, the 818.302 engine will fit fine. Charles is right--the only real difference is the rear subframe crossmember. Of course, unless someone's updated it, the 818.302 will have a dynamo instead of the S2 alternator, so you may need some minor wiring mods, but those should be manageable.

Good luck.

[Huib]

Quite right Ed. Personally I prefer the leva lunga of the series 1 but in combination with the whole package of the S1. I wouldn't think of putting a leva longa in a series 2 nor putting the S2 short stick in an S1.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The 4 speed gearbox was originally designed for column shift where the forces on the select yoke are different from floor shift. As a result the shaft of the select yoke and its bushes wear rapidly with the floor shift which takes away the precision of the shift and causes oil leakage. There is also a story that the sole job of Sandro Munari's navigator was to keep the lever in 3rd gear to prevent it from dropping out of gear (when driving the 1.3HF).

The 5 speed gearbox has three plastic bushes. When they wear the shifting becomes sloppy. It is easy to remake them from a material like POM. Note that the larger plastic ring (sitting around the ball on the stick) has to be firmly secured if you remake it. Just Locktite is not enough. Putting two small screws in from the side to lock it, should be a good idea.

As for the engine differences in power. Below 4000 rpm the 302 engine has more power than the 303 engine. Between 4000 rpm and 4800 rpm the power is the same. Over 4800 rpm the 303 has more power than the 302 engine. 4800 rpm corresponds to 140 km/h in top gear on all 1300 coupe's (S1 and S2).

[Peter]

As Charles mentioned, you will need to modify the floor pan for the 4 speed change lever. I've done this in the reverse direction, to fit a 5-speed box on an S1 car. (Actually, the box was already changed, but the bodge to accommodate the 5-speed extension was truly horrible.)

I wouldn't underestimate the work involved in doing this. There will be quite a bit of cutting, fabrication, and welding. I've never driven a Fulvia 4-speed, so I can't judge whether it would all be worthwhile. But I doubt it somehow.

Peter

[Ed Levin]

Peter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As Charles mentioned, you will need to modify the
> floor pan for the 4 speed change lever. I've done
> this in the reverse direction, to fit a 5-speed
> box on an S1 car. (Actually, the box was already
> changed, but the bodge to accommodate the 5-speed
> extension was truly horrible.)

I'm sure that it's possible to fabricate the floor pan / gearbox hump well and beautifully. But "bodge" would be too generous to describe the only 4-speed to 5-speed conversion I've ever seen.

[fulvia a.i.]

I hope to have time on weekend to go through Fulvia Reports / Road Tests; copy a few paragraphs, tech specs etc; which have been somewhat quite very confusing to me; not made less so by the posts above. I know too little about Fulvia History & Fulvia Tech-Aspects to understand why what is & what is what is I am reading.

I refer to - in no particular order - S1 vs S2 vs S3, final drive ratio, gear ratio, 4 vs 5 Sp, Coupe vs Sport & I assume vs Berlina - speaking only of recognized Fulvia road cars / nort Race or Rally Fulvia.

These matters are all "rather acadamic to me" at this time, but I would still like to understand what is meant by what I have read in a Blue-Glossy-Covered Journal of 76 printed pages -not counting the covers- printed in 1977 by The Lancia Motor Club & Motor Racing Publications Ltd of London. There are 28 articles printed between the covers; of which perhaps 10 need to be reviewed prior to my posting pecifics, tech details authors quotes; test results, odd-comments, & perhaps some questions.

I say "rather academic to me" because my Fulvia Sport 1.3S 5 sp gearbox seems to me to be fine & should, i pray, still be fine in the many next yrs to come.

? to the Winds: at what point is "leave best alone / leave best original" (if possible) the 'best Road to Travel' ?

if I had back 10% of monies I spent trying to acheive more performance & in the end, unoriginal a nice original car .......... sound or tearing cloth, sobs & wails are heard.........

OK, I had fun & would do it all over again...I am sure !!! ; biut not on my Fulvia.

Well, OK, I'd some of it anyway......alas........ because some it it really made sense ...back then...ha ha...boohoo, but but but ...not always though !!

[fulvia a.i.]

will I be opening "Pandora's Box" ? ha ha ha

perhaps I shouldn't, but this subject is fun & edumacational at the same time