International Lancia Forums

Hello all

I am new to this forum and it is great to know that there is such a great knowledge base out there. I have previously owned 2 Fulvias, a 1970 Rallye 1.3s and a 1972 Series 2 1.3s

After many years I am trying to get back into Fulvia ownership. I have come across a 1600HF with a damaged engine. Before i buy it I was wondering if it is possible to get plans for a 1584 cc engine or even the the rare Variant 1016 engine.


Does anyone know if these plans exist and if they are available?

Thank you

Paul

Most of the data you will need is in the Dati Tecnici book which Huib sells as part of the documentation CD's on this site.

What is the damage? Things like scored bores are relatively easy to correct (albeit expensive), scratched cranks are a little more difficult as they are nitrided. Cracked blocks are also relatively easy to get repaired. But I've never seen an un-recoverable engine.

Broadly speaking the difference between an S1 1600 engine and an S2 1600 engine is very little - to the point of being almost inconsequential in terms of performance.

Externally an S2 engine only has one alternator mounting boss on the block; an S1 has two. S1 engines had polished rockers and rods. They also supposedly had hand matched ports on the heads for inlet and exhasut manifolds - mine weren't particularly good so I was able to improve them considerably.

The big difference between the early and late S1 engines is that the first 609 (IIRC) had a 30% lighter flywheel fitted (6kg vs 9kg). All S2 engines had the heavier flywheel. This is the only significant standard performance difference.

The v1016 had (in addition to this) higher compression pistons, v1016 cams and Solex 45mm carbs - all the technical details are in the Dati Tecnici.

There are a number of small technical differences around the type of conrod and conrod bolts used (again all detailed in the DT).

Parts used by the works to take them beyond v1016 level (intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, ltd slip diffs etc) are all detailed in the homologation papers.

Everything else is basically the same. Most of the bits required to repair a 1600 engine, or to take it to v1016 level and beyond are available (at a cost) from companies such as Omicron. Most people going from standard to v1016 type spec would move away from Solex and go to either Dellorto or Weber - that necessitates using a different inlet manifold as the PCD between the barrels is greater.

There is nothing you can't get to help you re-build a 1600 engine as the information available is comprehensive. But even if you do the work yourself, and you don't need a re-bore it will cost ~€1000+. I've just finished rebuilding mine to standard spec.

Good luck
Neil

Hi Neil

Thank you for your prompt and detailed response. I will purchase the documentation CD as you suggest. It sounds like interesting reading.

I am not sure of the damage as yet as this will probably require the purchase of the car which has being lying up for a while. The vendor was not a witness to the damaging event but says that the engine had seized up. I have first refusal on the car but I am not in a position to buy it as yet - space, another project and funds all have their part to play. I hope to delay things for a while.

Again thank you for the information as it should make a difference when purchasing the car.

Good luck with your project and I'll keep you posted.

Best regards

Paul

Not surprisingly, Neil's covered it thoroughly and well. The critical var 1016 specs are covered in the DT.

But I wouldn't be too sure you want to build an engine to exact var 1016 spec anyway. 40 years on, there are probably better cam profiles available, and you'd be better off with a repro Gp. 4 intake manifold and Webers or Dell'ortos than with the original 45 DDHF Solex, which never worked brilliantly to begin with, but which would likely cost 1500 pounds if you could even find a pair for sale.

In fact, I'd wager that if you simply build a 1600 carefully, with readily-available modern spec upgrade, you'll probably end up with more power and better drivability than an original var 1016.

Hi Ed

Thank you very much for that supplementary information. It sounds like good advice and advice born from 40 years of collective experience has to be listened to. I had heard that the var1016 was not the most pleasant to live with so your approach and Neil’s choice seem to best.

Being slightly sceptical, I would imagine that the damage on 'my' engine could be more than the owner wants to believe. I was therefore wondering if there are any 'oily bits' lying around in peoples‘ sheds. If I needed a crankshaft or block for example, am I likely to find parts or are they, as Neil suggests, all repaired and happily working under aluminium bonnets?

Again thanks for the advice

Best regards

Paul

Your chances of finding a crank or block for sale are slim indeed, and even then it's likely the price asked would be far in excess of the cost of any repair. People hang on to bits like that "just in case". In the unlikely event that the engine has got a terminal problem with either your best bet would be to buy a new engine, they come up more often although you would probably have to settle for an S2 engine.

Conrods would be the only thing that would create problems as they can't really be repaired in my experience. Finding a set of those might be difficult but I have seen them for sale occasionally, the specialist are always a good starting point but I would be in the seated position when they quote!

Pistons I would buy new, as I would cams etc.

Paul's been speaking about building to variante 1016 spec, but unless I'm misreading the thread, I think Paul's got an S2 1600HF. So an S2 replacement engine sound perfectly plausible, although it's probably not impossible to source a crankcase or block separately.

I think Neil's right that an original variante 1016 engine, or even major components, will be virtually unfindable. Although, except for the rear crankcase cover with the serial number stamp, I'm not sure how you'd recognize one if you ran across it. All of the major components--crankcase, block, head--are "ordinary" Fanalone pieces; other than the 45DDHF carbs, only some internal parts--mostly pistons and cams--separate a var 1016 from any other early 818.540. Some early var 1016 engines actually used a 1.3HF block casting, bored to the newer 1.6HF spec, but those aren't typical.

But a genuine var 1016 doesn't seem to be the issue here (unless, as I say, I'm really missing something). So I think Neil's suggestion to look for a good used S2 1600 may well be the best answer.

hello i do have a good compleete s2 1.600 engine with low km and in running condition , compleete with all the parts, price is 6500 euros .

It's amazing what can be repaired.There was a deep groove in the top of one cylinder bore in my previous HF's engine, which was perfectly laser-welded by Jim Stokes Workshops who appear to be able to recreate anything (at a price). New pistons came from Venolia in the US but had to be ordered.

I was told that cylinder sleeving is not really an option for the 1600 engine, because the machining required causes problems at the bottom of the cylinder where there isn't enough 'meat'. A half-sleeve is a possibility but it's a bit of a bodge. I thought it was all over for my engine until JSW revealed their 21st-century technology.

Ed's comment about early 1600s using differently-machined 1.3 HF blocks is intriguing. Would a regular 1300 block be re-borable to 1600cc, or would the slightly different vee-angles not allow the 1300 cylinder to be contained completely within the space occupied by a notional 1600 cylinder? Would some sort of spacer be needed between block and head to accommodate the stroke? (That would be fun to machine with the sides of the cylinder holes at the correct vee-angle divided by two.) No doubt if it were a feasible idea, people would be doing it.

John

John's correct that modern technologies can work wonders, particularly in the hands of craftsmen like Stokes (who could build you a brand new D50 engine, let alone a Fulvia 1600). And new rods and pistons can always be fabricated, as he also notes. Venolia, the supplier John mentioned, fabricated Fulvia race pistons and replacement pistons in period, and they've retained their patterns; we're having them make the pistons for the 1016 we're rebuilding.

I very much doubt that a 1300 block could be rebored for a 1600. And I've edited my earlier post to clarify that the first variante 1016s used 1.3HF block castings--not rebored blocks. And I should hasten to add that it's actually unclear as to how they accomplished this. I don't know if they used existing 818.342 rough castings and simply bored the revised cylinder angles and milled less off the deck height, or if they adapted and extended the existing 1.3HF casting molds for a special casting run before the 818.540 molds were ready. All that's really clear is that the earliest blocks have 818.342 casting numbers. And that's a long way from a rebore of an existing 1300 block.

But John's real point is that engines can be brought back from the near-dead. And Giorgio, who's owned several Fanalones and still has piles of spares for them, makes it clear that replacement engines can be found.