if we thought that 'badge enginnering' had dies, well, have a look...some of our worst fears are being materialised...whoever had this absurd idea ought to go!
how undermining what little life remains at Lancia and at the same time supposedly project into a future Chrysler is beyond belief!
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/chrysler-lancia/#2
Chrysler 'Delta'
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Bart Verbeek
- Posts: 267
- Joined: 17 Dec 2008, 19:54
Re: Chrysler 'Delta'
the Americans seem to like it and they have less issues with the 'badge-engineering' ... and sadly the bean counters prevail these days...
Re: Chrysler 'Delta'
Chrysler will "like" anything that will keep them alive, and presumably Lancia will "like" selling more Deltas, even with the wrong grille and badges.
You'd prefer it if Americans hated the Delta? Or maybe you'd prefer we were still discussing Fiat dropping Lancia, as we were last year? Or have you forgotten that already? Because if this is "some of your worst fears," you may have a very short memory.
Don't get me wrong--some of us Americans would really rather see the Delta come into the US as a Lancia, not a quasi-Chrysler. But let's try to maintain a little perspective. After all, you can always change a grille and a badge.
You'd prefer it if Americans hated the Delta? Or maybe you'd prefer we were still discussing Fiat dropping Lancia, as we were last year? Or have you forgotten that already? Because if this is "some of your worst fears," you may have a very short memory.
Don't get me wrong--some of us Americans would really rather see the Delta come into the US as a Lancia, not a quasi-Chrysler. But let's try to maintain a little perspective. After all, you can always change a grille and a badge.
Re: Chrysler 'Delta'
Interesting views, Ed, and well put.
I'm not sure that liking any of the above options is the first choice on the list....but you have the right list, so there we are.
Having Lancia design ethos actually available in the US is a rather stunning change. Of course, how much of that ethos remains (even in the original product) is its own issue, but if there was some still extant, then having it with a different grille in the US now is a peculiar, but acceptable matter.
This is a slightly odd way to breathe more life into an entity that just the other year was "terminal". Maybe a recovery will take place; the other option was just shutting it down.
I hope it works, and brings some glory on our friends in Turin. They haven't had much to work with, but with some success, they might be given more. It would be fun to see a rebound.
I'm not sure that liking any of the above options is the first choice on the list....but you have the right list, so there we are.
Having Lancia design ethos actually available in the US is a rather stunning change. Of course, how much of that ethos remains (even in the original product) is its own issue, but if there was some still extant, then having it with a different grille in the US now is a peculiar, but acceptable matter.
This is a slightly odd way to breathe more life into an entity that just the other year was "terminal". Maybe a recovery will take place; the other option was just shutting it down.
I hope it works, and brings some glory on our friends in Turin. They haven't had much to work with, but with some success, they might be given more. It would be fun to see a rebound.
Geoff Goldberg
1952 B20 s.2
1957 B24 s.6
1959 Appia Berlina s.2
1952 B20 s.2
1957 B24 s.6
1959 Appia Berlina s.2
Re: Chrysler 'Delta'
badge engineering never succeeded anywhere...its always a stop-gap and 'cheap' solution, fire-sale style which only undermines long term viability or building brand value; I would even include Opel/Buick/Saturn/Vauxhall into that category because GM is constantly having to hold back Opel from becoming a world brand in deference to their other brand 'priorities' and then they turn round and complain that this or that division has been unprofitable. Whilst Opel et al has been 'cannibalised' over time and most traditional customers hardly noticed (except in the UK where Opel was 'on again', 'off again') , the Chrysler-Lancia intention is shock therapy...abd besides, we have been told that the Delta is not necessarily on the cards of the US as it has not been 'federalised'.
Many Lancias if not all are sold on 'emotion' and not hard tangible objective criteria, otherwise I might have been driving a Skoda Octavia Station Wagon or a Ford Focus instead of my Lancia Lybra SW for which I am desperately and up to now unsuccessfully trying to identify a replacement...if we are eventually served a Chrysler Sebring simply badged Lancia, do you think anyone in Europe will be fooled into buying one when no one buys it badged as a Chrysler? I am not complaining on the Chrysler-Delta per se, but the principle.
The balance that has to be achieved by Fiat with Lancia-Chrysler is to raise the image of Chrylsr to the extent that customers would be prepared to pay premium prices for them hence matching Lancia's positioning in Europe where quite frankly the brand has been suffering for lack of investment and diversity in its portfolio. IN Italy it succeeds as people have an image of Lancia as an upper class car so they can buy into the aura with the Ypsilon and Musa, but the same image does not pervade the rest of Europe's knowledge of the brand and its a hard sell...Maybe the price points if branded Chrysler would be lower, and the cost of production in the US would be lower, hence resulting in a possible profitable business...but Europeans have been used to Chryslers being cheap compared to Euro equivalents...
sorry...must stop. But can you imagine if Ford had taken a Jaguar and branded it Mercury? or a Range Rover branded Ford Explorer?
Many Lancias if not all are sold on 'emotion' and not hard tangible objective criteria, otherwise I might have been driving a Skoda Octavia Station Wagon or a Ford Focus instead of my Lancia Lybra SW for which I am desperately and up to now unsuccessfully trying to identify a replacement...if we are eventually served a Chrysler Sebring simply badged Lancia, do you think anyone in Europe will be fooled into buying one when no one buys it badged as a Chrysler? I am not complaining on the Chrysler-Delta per se, but the principle.
The balance that has to be achieved by Fiat with Lancia-Chrysler is to raise the image of Chrylsr to the extent that customers would be prepared to pay premium prices for them hence matching Lancia's positioning in Europe where quite frankly the brand has been suffering for lack of investment and diversity in its portfolio. IN Italy it succeeds as people have an image of Lancia as an upper class car so they can buy into the aura with the Ypsilon and Musa, but the same image does not pervade the rest of Europe's knowledge of the brand and its a hard sell...Maybe the price points if branded Chrysler would be lower, and the cost of production in the US would be lower, hence resulting in a possible profitable business...but Europeans have been used to Chryslers being cheap compared to Euro equivalents...
sorry...must stop. But can you imagine if Ford had taken a Jaguar and branded it Mercury? or a Range Rover branded Ford Explorer?
Re: Chrysler 'Delta'
Toyota - Lexus
Nissan - Infiniti
Honda - Acura
At least in the short term, I'd settle for another "brand value failure" like that for Lancia
Philip Wrote:
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> badge engineering never succeeded anywhere...its
> always a stop-gap and 'cheap' solution, fire-sale
> style which only undermines long term viability or
> building brand value;
Nissan - Infiniti
Honda - Acura
At least in the short term, I'd settle for another "brand value failure" like that for Lancia
Philip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> badge engineering never succeeded anywhere...its
> always a stop-gap and 'cheap' solution, fire-sale
> style which only undermines long term viability or
> building brand value;
Re: Chrysler 'Delta'
I grew up in a Lancia and have owned Lancias as family and personal transport since 1984...it would be sad to see it dead, but bastardised Chryslers monkeying as Lancias could never be my cup of tea...maybe they will find a whole new clientele for them, and that would be fine by me. I just won't be one fo them.
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Randy Adams
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 17:19
Re: Chrysler 'Delta'
This is a real non sequitur, Ed. A much closer analogue to your examples was the old Lancia Beta from Fiat. Taking a car developed as a premium make and badging it with a cheaper make's nameplate is not what any of your examples demonstrate.
I tend to agree with Phillip on this. If the name Lancia is applied to rubbish such as the Musa (or, less heinously, the Ypsilon) then it would be better for the long term memory of the name to retire it from further use.
I tend to agree with Phillip on this. If the name Lancia is applied to rubbish such as the Musa (or, less heinously, the Ypsilon) then it would be better for the long term memory of the name to retire it from further use.
Re: Chrysler 'Delta'
My point was that "no badge engineering ever succeeded" is demonstrably untrue. In any case, the relationship between the Fiat 124 and the Lancia Beta was certainly not badge engineering; the platforms were entirely different--they only shared engines (and not all engine components were interchangeable). I can't see that pair as analogous to any of this. A better rebadging analogy is the Cobra, which was badged and sold as a Shelby in the US and as an AC in the UK--same car in every other respect.
If you don't like the Delta, that's fine. If you think slapping a Chrysler grille on a Lancia is a gratuitous exercise, you won't get any argument from me. But as shown in Detroit, it's still a Lancia by any other name--simply changed the grille and badging doesn't alter that; they didn't dumb down the engineering or quality for the US market. Of course, this may not be the end of the story. And if they end up "re-engineering" it for "American taste," I'll scream as loudly as the rest of you. But until then, you won't get me to buy into the "better off dead" argument.
If you don't like the Delta, that's fine. If you think slapping a Chrysler grille on a Lancia is a gratuitous exercise, you won't get any argument from me. But as shown in Detroit, it's still a Lancia by any other name--simply changed the grille and badging doesn't alter that; they didn't dumb down the engineering or quality for the US market. Of course, this may not be the end of the story. And if they end up "re-engineering" it for "American taste," I'll scream as loudly as the rest of you. But until then, you won't get me to buy into the "better off dead" argument.