Hi all,
I have recently replaced the rubber supports which sit between the ends of the front spring and the top of the a-arm on the Fulvia. Because the spring does not seem to be firmly fixed front to rear the support on the driver's side has already started collapsing backwards.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that someone had developed a replacement for the rubber support using a metal 'frame' supporting a roller running in bearings which would provide far more accurate positioning of the spring.
Does anyone have any info/diagrams/photos/specs/measurements I could use to design something similar ?
Thanks
Steve
Rubber supports under the front spring
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william
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
The roller does not locate the spring but merely serves as a non rubbery connection between the a-arm and the leaf which move in relation to each other. The rolling pin is situated between a forging or casting shaped like a U. The leafspring itself should be kept located by the bracket wich clamps the spring in the center, the one were the for bolts go through vertically and which is located further by 4 shorter bolts horizontally (early cars did not have the later short bolts but were modified during services at lancia dealerships.)
My HF has a official Lancia Squadra Corse roller fitted and the U is even slighly wider than the width of the spring. Allowing for a little fwd and aft movement of the spring. If they were to touch constantly the U casting would wear out rapidly.
mail me if you need a photo of the roller.
William
My HF has a official Lancia Squadra Corse roller fitted and the U is even slighly wider than the width of the spring. Allowing for a little fwd and aft movement of the spring. If they were to touch constantly the U casting would wear out rapidly.
mail me if you need a photo of the roller.
William
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Huib
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
Some feathering of the spring is not unusual. As long as it does not touch anything you are all right. As William points out the rollers as being used do not prevent feathering of the spring. One could however design a roller which does keep the spring centered as I once did for a Flavia where feathering of the springs is a problem. You would have to give the roller a diabolo shape and put a length of half round strip under the spring.
I have tried several rollers on my Fulvia's. They are ok for handling. They are no longer on my cars as for normal road use I prefer the rubber buffers as I believe reliability is inversely proportional to parts count. A roller consists of a number of parts. Remember that the Squadra Corse had its own service team and a truck with spares. I am always suspicious of "Squadra Corse modifications" which did not go into regular production. There were some modifications which did go into production.
The Super Jolly did have rollers. Look it up in the Super Jolly parts book. There is no Lancia part which had more modifications than these rollers. On the other hand the rubber buffers remained in production from the first Flavia in 1960 through the last Fulvia in 1976
I have tried several rollers on my Fulvia's. They are ok for handling. They are no longer on my cars as for normal road use I prefer the rubber buffers as I believe reliability is inversely proportional to parts count. A roller consists of a number of parts. Remember that the Squadra Corse had its own service team and a truck with spares. I am always suspicious of "Squadra Corse modifications" which did not go into regular production. There were some modifications which did go into production.
The Super Jolly did have rollers. Look it up in the Super Jolly parts book. There is no Lancia part which had more modifications than these rollers. On the other hand the rubber buffers remained in production from the first Flavia in 1960 through the last Fulvia in 1976
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Peter Cripps
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
Is it necessary to completely unload the spring to adjust its position? I ask because I tried to align the spring on my Fulvia by loosening all the bolts on the U-casting, vertical and horizontal, but the spring would not budge.
Peter
Peter
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william
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
When the spring is installed it should not have a ;lot of play in the U-block. it is a snug fit. It should, because it is the only part Keeping the spring in place! If you have fwd-aft movement possibly this U-block has been tempered with or is worn because is was not sufficiently tightened for a long time.
My experience is that when the spring is preloaded and the 4 vertical bolts (and the 4 horizontal short ones) are loosened a bit the spring can be centered using a wooden block and a hamer to tap it were it comes out of the U-beam. Than with the correct preload (about 2cm between the buffer and the plate) tighten the 8 bolts to 2,5kgm. It should be okay.
My experience is that when the spring is preloaded and the 4 vertical bolts (and the 4 horizontal short ones) are loosened a bit the spring can be centered using a wooden block and a hamer to tap it were it comes out of the U-beam. Than with the correct preload (about 2cm between the buffer and the plate) tighten the 8 bolts to 2,5kgm. It should be okay.
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Huib
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
Many are not completely aligned. If it is not touching anything, don't do anything. If it does touch follow William's procedure. If the rubber buffers are distorted, it is a good idea to replace them
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Peter Cripps
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
Thanks Huib and William!
This thread prompted me to take another look at the spring to see if it was touching ... and in fact it is rubbing against the front side of the U piece where the spring comes out on the passenger side.
Last time I tried aligning the spring, I still had the buffers connected. And, the passenger side buffer is quite distorted. I suppose it's possible that the buffer has taken a 'set' and that is why I couldn't get much movement on the spring.
Sounds as if I need to get new buffers. To fit them, I assume I have to find some way to hold the spring back as I lower the suspension? Needless to say, I don't have the special tool shown in the manual!
Peter
This thread prompted me to take another look at the spring to see if it was touching ... and in fact it is rubbing against the front side of the U piece where the spring comes out on the passenger side.
Last time I tried aligning the spring, I still had the buffers connected. And, the passenger side buffer is quite distorted. I suppose it's possible that the buffer has taken a 'set' and that is why I couldn't get much movement on the spring.
Sounds as if I need to get new buffers. To fit them, I assume I have to find some way to hold the spring back as I lower the suspension? Needless to say, I don't have the special tool shown in the manual!
Peter
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william (1200HF)
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
When replacing the rubbers it might be that you can suffice using the simple tool I made for replacing shims under my rollers to alter ride height.
I have drilled 9mm holes in the U-beam just where they exit the alu towers. Drill the holes so a 8mm bolt can go through horizontally. I have fabricated two strips about 3"in lenght from at least 1.5mm thick sheetmetal. In both ends you drill also 9mm holes. Now you need one or two heavy friends to sit on the front wing after youvé fit the strips to the U-beam with a 8mm bolt (No need for a nut). If your friends are heavy enough the lower boltholes in the trips are under the leaf so you can also fit a 8mm bolt through there. Now remove your friends and jack the car up under the sill or subframe. The strips will hold the leaf in the compressed position while the A-arms stay behind (that is if you have undone the nuts on the rubber buffer) If you still do not have enough room for the threadends on the buffer even when the wheel is off the floor you can get an extra inch or so if you undo the lower shockabsorber eye.
Good luck!
I have drilled 9mm holes in the U-beam just where they exit the alu towers. Drill the holes so a 8mm bolt can go through horizontally. I have fabricated two strips about 3"in lenght from at least 1.5mm thick sheetmetal. In both ends you drill also 9mm holes. Now you need one or two heavy friends to sit on the front wing after youvé fit the strips to the U-beam with a 8mm bolt (No need for a nut). If your friends are heavy enough the lower boltholes in the trips are under the leaf so you can also fit a 8mm bolt through there. Now remove your friends and jack the car up under the sill or subframe. The strips will hold the leaf in the compressed position while the A-arms stay behind (that is if you have undone the nuts on the rubber buffer) If you still do not have enough room for the threadends on the buffer even when the wheel is off the floor you can get an extra inch or so if you undo the lower shockabsorber eye.
Good luck!
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Huib
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
I have never found out whether the spring moved because the rubber became distorted or the rubber became distorted because the spring moved.
If you don't have the tools the safest and easiest way is to use a 4 column jack and do one side at a time so you can put the whole weight on one side.
Take off the nuts from the rubber buffer
Lift up the car.
Put a high axle stand (ca 1m80) under the spring
Lower the car till the wheel is free.
Remove the wheel.
Continue lowering the car till you can take the old buffer off.
Note: by this time the other front wheel will probably be in the air too and one of the rear wheels
Lower the car a bit more because the new rubber is longer.
Put in the new rubber. Use a small hydraulic jack under the lower wishbone to push up the wishbones so the studs on the buffer go into their holes.
Raise the car
If you don't have the tools the safest and easiest way is to use a 4 column jack and do one side at a time so you can put the whole weight on one side.
Take off the nuts from the rubber buffer
Lift up the car.
Put a high axle stand (ca 1m80) under the spring
Lower the car till the wheel is free.
Remove the wheel.
Continue lowering the car till you can take the old buffer off.
Note: by this time the other front wheel will probably be in the air too and one of the rear wheels
Lower the car a bit more because the new rubber is longer.
Put in the new rubber. Use a small hydraulic jack under the lower wishbone to push up the wishbones so the studs on the buffer go into their holes.
Raise the car
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Peter Cripps
Re: Rubber supports under the front spring
Thanks William and Huib for the tips. I'll be tackling this some time in the next month or so, and will report back -- or more likely, post further questions!
Peter
Peter