I have been having a problem with water in the oil. Not just a little water but the whole radiator!!!
I've been told that the problem could be the water pump & gasket so I am going to replace them.
The problem is that it doesn't look like an easy job, so does anyone have any tips on removal of the water pump with the engine in situ?
Also, are all water pumps the same? eg 1.2, 1.3 & 1.6. througout all the series of Fulvia? or are series one pumps different to s.2 & 3?
I have a 1.6, so will the 1.3 water pump fit?
Anything else I should know with this jon would be very much appreciated.
Thanks for your time.
m
Water Pump
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Jay Hinton
Re: Water Pump
Well, water pumps are and are not the same.
While its true that they all do fit onto the engine block, the earlier pumps under the Lancia company were of higher quality, had a different impeller design that actually flowed coolant at a higher rate, and were easily rebuildable. Usually, the only problem is a softened rubber seal around the impeller shaft. If you have a early water pump, you can choose to just replace that seal, though sometimes people do replace the bearing as well. Often, the rubber seal is included in engine gaskets sets for Fulvia. On the other hand, if you have a latter style pump, there isn't any provision for rebuilding it and a new, far more expensive pump must be bought.
On one of my 1.3 Fulvia Coupes, it was losing a small amount of coolant, resulting in it running hot but also, the water showed up in the crankcase, though only a slight amount. At first, I assumed a bad headgasket, but nope, I removed the pump and found a badly worn impeller bearing, with coolant leaking past and straight down into the crankcase.
As far as replacing the water pump, its not really so bad. Most of the bolts are easily removed , you have to reach up under the front bodywork with a 10 mm wrench to get to the several bolts hiding on the bottom of the pump. In fact, this has to be one of the easiest waterpumps to replace on any engine.
See if you can locate a early style water pump somehow, and you will be ahead of the game.
Ciao, Jay
While its true that they all do fit onto the engine block, the earlier pumps under the Lancia company were of higher quality, had a different impeller design that actually flowed coolant at a higher rate, and were easily rebuildable. Usually, the only problem is a softened rubber seal around the impeller shaft. If you have a early water pump, you can choose to just replace that seal, though sometimes people do replace the bearing as well. Often, the rubber seal is included in engine gaskets sets for Fulvia. On the other hand, if you have a latter style pump, there isn't any provision for rebuilding it and a new, far more expensive pump must be bought.
On one of my 1.3 Fulvia Coupes, it was losing a small amount of coolant, resulting in it running hot but also, the water showed up in the crankcase, though only a slight amount. At first, I assumed a bad headgasket, but nope, I removed the pump and found a badly worn impeller bearing, with coolant leaking past and straight down into the crankcase.
As far as replacing the water pump, its not really so bad. Most of the bolts are easily removed , you have to reach up under the front bodywork with a 10 mm wrench to get to the several bolts hiding on the bottom of the pump. In fact, this has to be one of the easiest waterpumps to replace on any engine.
See if you can locate a early style water pump somehow, and you will be ahead of the game.
Ciao, Jay
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Huib
Re: Water Pump
Mind you the the seal is not a rubber ring around the impeller shaft but a spring loaded ceramic plate which pushes against the bottom of the impeller. The spindle goes through the center of the spring but it does not touch it. Around the spring is a rubber skirt to prevent leakage around the side. This is a so called mechanical seal. Some rebuild the waterpump using a stack of oil seals around the spindle. I have not tried that but I do not expect it to last long as the seals are not lubricated (rubber seals have to be lubricated) and the hardness of the spindle is practically zero.
The bottom of the impeller has to be hard steel and well polished. The early impellers were brass with a hard steel bottom. This steel part has to be inspected and if necessary polished or replaced with a new ring machined out of widia steel. It has to be very flat, very smooth and of sufficient thickness.
I have not been able to buy or steal any of the original type seals for a number of years. If anybody can source these, let me know.
On the early pumps the impellers were fastened on the spindle with a nut. The impellers do sometimes come off the spindle which would cause massive leakage
The blades of the brass impellers are straight and often damaged.
Later ones have impellers of cast iron or something similar, also with straight blades. The last ones from Graf that I have seen have iron impellers with backward curved blades and these are not bad at all. These are in fact the best if you can get them to run reliably and work a bit on all possibilities for oil and water leakage.
Fastening of the impellers on the replacement pumps varies. Some use nuts, some have a press fitting, both are not very good. Often impellers get off the shaft (in which case the mechanical seal no longer presses against the impeller resulting in massive leakage) or simply leak between impeller and shaft. This leakage then bypasses the seal.
Also the type of seal used on the replacement pumps varies. I buy the pumps from a number of suppliers who probably have a random in / random out inventory system. I have not even tried to make some sort of picture how the waterpump evolved over time. I just assume, the manufacturer varies the impeller, the type of seal and the fastening as he sees fit at the time for no other reason than to help me keep my senses sharp. I like the guy. Mille grazie, signor
The ball bearings in the replacement pumps do not carry a brand name. They are probably made in outer Mongolia. Nothing bad of the friendly people in Mongolia but they should refrain from making precision ball bearings. And if they insist on making ball bearings then they should not forget to put grease in as they often do. If within a few thousand kilometer the waterpump starts to sound like the last ordeal, you scored a waterpump without grease in the ball bearing.
I replace the ball bearing on any new pump before putting it on the engine. The type is 62202 for both the original and the replacement pumps. This is an expensive one. I replace it with type 6202 which has the same OD and ID, has slightly better load ratings and costs half the money. The width of the 6202 is 11 mm versus 14 mm for the 62202. So I stack 1 mm shim rings, small ones around the spindle and larger ones inside the housing to compensate for the 3mm. The 6202 is the same type that goes into the mechanical radiator fan of the series 1. These are available from high quality manufacturers like SKF and FAG with 2RS1 seals. These seals are however grease seals. The ones with the oil seals are in the SKF book, but they are not in production. So I buy good Japanses ones from NSK which have DDU seals which are a lot better than the 2RS1 seals.
There is a chamber between the mechanical seal on the water side and the ball bearing functioning as an oil seal on the engine side. There are two tiny holes in the bottom of that chamber, so called weep holes. Any water or oil leakage should come out through these holes instead of water going into the sump or oil going into the radiator. If not, either the holes are blocked or you have such massive leakage that the holes are too small to cope.
First check the pressure rating of the radiator cap. It should be 0,35 bar.
Then check for a leaking head gasket using the sniffer over the radiator.
The take the pump off. As Jay says this is easy. Remove the grille first. Open the waterpump and let us know.
The bottom of the impeller has to be hard steel and well polished. The early impellers were brass with a hard steel bottom. This steel part has to be inspected and if necessary polished or replaced with a new ring machined out of widia steel. It has to be very flat, very smooth and of sufficient thickness.
I have not been able to buy or steal any of the original type seals for a number of years. If anybody can source these, let me know.
On the early pumps the impellers were fastened on the spindle with a nut. The impellers do sometimes come off the spindle which would cause massive leakage
The blades of the brass impellers are straight and often damaged.
Later ones have impellers of cast iron or something similar, also with straight blades. The last ones from Graf that I have seen have iron impellers with backward curved blades and these are not bad at all. These are in fact the best if you can get them to run reliably and work a bit on all possibilities for oil and water leakage.
Fastening of the impellers on the replacement pumps varies. Some use nuts, some have a press fitting, both are not very good. Often impellers get off the shaft (in which case the mechanical seal no longer presses against the impeller resulting in massive leakage) or simply leak between impeller and shaft. This leakage then bypasses the seal.
Also the type of seal used on the replacement pumps varies. I buy the pumps from a number of suppliers who probably have a random in / random out inventory system. I have not even tried to make some sort of picture how the waterpump evolved over time. I just assume, the manufacturer varies the impeller, the type of seal and the fastening as he sees fit at the time for no other reason than to help me keep my senses sharp. I like the guy. Mille grazie, signor
The ball bearings in the replacement pumps do not carry a brand name. They are probably made in outer Mongolia. Nothing bad of the friendly people in Mongolia but they should refrain from making precision ball bearings. And if they insist on making ball bearings then they should not forget to put grease in as they often do. If within a few thousand kilometer the waterpump starts to sound like the last ordeal, you scored a waterpump without grease in the ball bearing.
I replace the ball bearing on any new pump before putting it on the engine. The type is 62202 for both the original and the replacement pumps. This is an expensive one. I replace it with type 6202 which has the same OD and ID, has slightly better load ratings and costs half the money. The width of the 6202 is 11 mm versus 14 mm for the 62202. So I stack 1 mm shim rings, small ones around the spindle and larger ones inside the housing to compensate for the 3mm. The 6202 is the same type that goes into the mechanical radiator fan of the series 1. These are available from high quality manufacturers like SKF and FAG with 2RS1 seals. These seals are however grease seals. The ones with the oil seals are in the SKF book, but they are not in production. So I buy good Japanses ones from NSK which have DDU seals which are a lot better than the 2RS1 seals.
There is a chamber between the mechanical seal on the water side and the ball bearing functioning as an oil seal on the engine side. There are two tiny holes in the bottom of that chamber, so called weep holes. Any water or oil leakage should come out through these holes instead of water going into the sump or oil going into the radiator. If not, either the holes are blocked or you have such massive leakage that the holes are too small to cope.
First check the pressure rating of the radiator cap. It should be 0,35 bar.
Then check for a leaking head gasket using the sniffer over the radiator.
The take the pump off. As Jay says this is easy. Remove the grille first. Open the waterpump and let us know.
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m!
Re: Water Pump
Thank you guys there's a lot of info here. Your contributions are most welcome.
I haven't taken the water pump off yet, I wanted to get some feedback from hee before I start but I will let you know my progress. I have a wedding to go to this weekend so doing much more than take the pump - and grill off is all I will manage to do.
I'll take photo's to assist with my progress report - if I know how to post pictures I know it has been a problem with a few contributers on this (wonderful) forum.
I can imagine that the earlier pumps would be a better quality than the later ones - not wanting to get into an argument with anyone here, so would therfore like to retrieve as much of the original - I hope, pump as I can and replace, the gaskets and bearings &c. with the best quality ones I can source (here in Salerno).
I would also like to service the cooling system as much as I can while the radiator is empty, perhaos even take the radiator somewhere where it can be cleaned by a professional. What would people recommend for a car that was built in 1969 and may not have had an cooling system overhaul? ever!
In the meantime, the weather here is really hot, not like the UK where I suppose it is miserable.
Once again, thanks for the contirbution so far...off to take off the pump!
I haven't taken the water pump off yet, I wanted to get some feedback from hee before I start but I will let you know my progress. I have a wedding to go to this weekend so doing much more than take the pump - and grill off is all I will manage to do.
I'll take photo's to assist with my progress report - if I know how to post pictures I know it has been a problem with a few contributers on this (wonderful) forum.
I can imagine that the earlier pumps would be a better quality than the later ones - not wanting to get into an argument with anyone here, so would therfore like to retrieve as much of the original - I hope, pump as I can and replace, the gaskets and bearings &c. with the best quality ones I can source (here in Salerno).
I would also like to service the cooling system as much as I can while the radiator is empty, perhaos even take the radiator somewhere where it can be cleaned by a professional. What would people recommend for a car that was built in 1969 and may not have had an cooling system overhaul? ever!
In the meantime, the weather here is really hot, not like the UK where I suppose it is miserable.
Once again, thanks for the contirbution so far...off to take off the pump!
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Huib
Re: Water Pump
If you have a 1.6 built in '69 it must be a Fanalone, thus series 1.
In those days coolant was not commonly available. I had to get mine through friends in the air force. Water with antifreeze was used. The water probably came from the acqua non potabile tap. You may expect quite a bit of deposit. For me the following is standard procedure on an S1 car:
new radiator core, new heater core, new hoses, new membrane for the heater cock (very important)
overhaul of dynamo / alternator, voltage regulator, starter motor by Bosch dealer
new ball bearings in radiator fan
new master brake cilinder
dismantling of brake callipers, inpection, overhaul if necessary, make sure high quality, disc friendly pads go in
new Goodridge brake hoses
new seals on gearbox (do not forget sender for speedo), checking of synchros. If necessary replace synchro rings. Synthetic oil
inspection of crankshaft bearings.
new oil pump
new seals on crankshaft and rev counter sender
careful inspection of wishbone bushes, suspension ball joints, track rod ends and greasing
check advance of ignition
inspection of wheel bearings. Grease or replace.
cleaning of steering box and new seals
Back to the waterpump. You say the whole radiator ended up in the sump. This suggests a very big leakage as a small leakage would disappear through the weep holes unless these are blocked. The cases were coolant disappeared quickly that I have seen were all caused by combustion gasses getting into the system because of a bad head gasket.
In those days coolant was not commonly available. I had to get mine through friends in the air force. Water with antifreeze was used. The water probably came from the acqua non potabile tap. You may expect quite a bit of deposit. For me the following is standard procedure on an S1 car:
new radiator core, new heater core, new hoses, new membrane for the heater cock (very important)
overhaul of dynamo / alternator, voltage regulator, starter motor by Bosch dealer
new ball bearings in radiator fan
new master brake cilinder
dismantling of brake callipers, inpection, overhaul if necessary, make sure high quality, disc friendly pads go in
new Goodridge brake hoses
new seals on gearbox (do not forget sender for speedo), checking of synchros. If necessary replace synchro rings. Synthetic oil
inspection of crankshaft bearings.
new oil pump
new seals on crankshaft and rev counter sender
careful inspection of wishbone bushes, suspension ball joints, track rod ends and greasing
check advance of ignition
inspection of wheel bearings. Grease or replace.
cleaning of steering box and new seals
Back to the waterpump. You say the whole radiator ended up in the sump. This suggests a very big leakage as a small leakage would disappear through the weep holes unless these are blocked. The cases were coolant disappeared quickly that I have seen were all caused by combustion gasses getting into the system because of a bad head gasket.
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Jay Hinton
Re: Water Pump
Hi M,
If you have a Series 1 Fulvia, its not necessary to remove the front grill from the car to remove and refit, the waterpump. Or, at least I don't, though I think I did with the Fulvia GTE Berlina..... For Series 2, well, I dunno, as I haven't had the opportunity, though I would think its much the same. I always degrease the front of the engine block around the water pump prior to removal.
Very good choice on going for a early style rebuildable pump. Its possible the pump on your engine is exactly that type, so removing and opening it up will tell you immediately. You will see a four bladed brass impeller and small fixing nut. With the pumps I have worked on, they all have a locking tab underneath the small nut, this would prevent it from coming loose as sometimes happens with Huib. (Huib -- do you know about the locking tab?)
For replacement parts, both gaskets, bearing and seal, these are all easily available from ****** moderated ****
For the remainder of the cooling system, well, yes, a radiator repair isn't a bad idea, but its a excellent time to consider moving to a Series 2 cooling system, with the electric fan for cooling and discarding the engine driven mechanical fan. You will realize all sorts of improvements here, So, you would source our a original style electric fan, perhaps a Series 2/3 radiator if your radiator is in a sad state, and a threaded bung welded into the bottom of the radiator for the thermostatic control switch, to operate that fan. All these pieces are standard Series 2/3 bits.
Best of luck with the repairs and have fun doing so...
Ciao, Jay
If you have a Series 1 Fulvia, its not necessary to remove the front grill from the car to remove and refit, the waterpump. Or, at least I don't, though I think I did with the Fulvia GTE Berlina..... For Series 2, well, I dunno, as I haven't had the opportunity, though I would think its much the same. I always degrease the front of the engine block around the water pump prior to removal.
Very good choice on going for a early style rebuildable pump. Its possible the pump on your engine is exactly that type, so removing and opening it up will tell you immediately. You will see a four bladed brass impeller and small fixing nut. With the pumps I have worked on, they all have a locking tab underneath the small nut, this would prevent it from coming loose as sometimes happens with Huib. (Huib -- do you know about the locking tab?)
For replacement parts, both gaskets, bearing and seal, these are all easily available from ****** moderated ****
For the remainder of the cooling system, well, yes, a radiator repair isn't a bad idea, but its a excellent time to consider moving to a Series 2 cooling system, with the electric fan for cooling and discarding the engine driven mechanical fan. You will realize all sorts of improvements here, So, you would source our a original style electric fan, perhaps a Series 2/3 radiator if your radiator is in a sad state, and a threaded bung welded into the bottom of the radiator for the thermostatic control switch, to operate that fan. All these pieces are standard Series 2/3 bits.
Best of luck with the repairs and have fun doing so...
Ciao, Jay
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m!
Re: Water Pump
well...I am hoping that a revamp of the water pump and ancilliaries will cure the problem.
I've heard the horror story of cracks in the block caused by the freezing of the coolant and that welding the block in certain places is impossible.
So I would rather have to replace the head gasket than the problem being a crack in the cylinder block.
The problem started with a small amount of water as steam being discharged by way of a tube that was affixed - not by me in the oil filler neck. Ingenious these Italians. The problem quickly got worse to the point where I need to fix it. the car still runs but needs the oil to be replaced. The car hasn't been driven much so I'm hoping that nothing worse than a seal needs replacing.
I will let you know what happens as it happens
moses
I've heard the horror story of cracks in the block caused by the freezing of the coolant and that welding the block in certain places is impossible.
So I would rather have to replace the head gasket than the problem being a crack in the cylinder block.
The problem started with a small amount of water as steam being discharged by way of a tube that was affixed - not by me in the oil filler neck. Ingenious these Italians. The problem quickly got worse to the point where I need to fix it. the car still runs but needs the oil to be replaced. The car hasn't been driven much so I'm hoping that nothing worse than a seal needs replacing.
I will let you know what happens as it happens
moses
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Huib
Re: Water Pump
Looks you are in for an engine job. The ones I have seen head blown head gaskets but a crack in the block is definitely a possibility too.
Water getting from the waterpump into the sump is more theoretical than a practical possibility.
Water getting from the waterpump into the sump is more theoretical than a practical possibility.
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Huib
Re: Water Pump
Thanks for the tip, Jay
You know I have to moderate advertising for companies / persons that do not have banners on the forum especially if sponsors (in this case Omicron, Mara and Cavalitto) do sell relevant parts. You are of course free to send emails.
You know I have to moderate advertising for companies / persons that do not have banners on the forum especially if sponsors (in this case Omicron, Mara and Cavalitto) do sell relevant parts. You are of course free to send emails.