At the final check for FOD before closing the valve gear cover after setting the valve clearance I discovered that the brass oil spray nozzle was missing. This nozzle is fitted to spay oil on the oil- and fuel pump drive shaft gear. I think it could have happened during the last headgasket replacement.
My question is if it is a very big problem so that I have to completely dismantle the engine of can I let it be till the next engine rebuild when it is due ?
The oilpressure (on the lancia gauge) is very good.
Please advise!
oil spray nozzle gone
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Huib
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
It translates into two questions:
1) can I leave the broken off nozzle in the engine?
2) does the engine need the nozzle to operate properly?
The consensus is that the nozzle if there to lubricate the aux shaft gear. But is it true? The shaft gets lubricated at the top where the fuel pump sits. Oil will seep down from there. It might very well be that the nozzle is there to lubricate the oil seal on the pulley. It is aimed more at the oil seal than at the gear wheels.
If oil pressure is ok as you say, than the loss of pressure is negligible.
You can draw your conclusions from above.
1) can I leave the broken off nozzle in the engine?
2) does the engine need the nozzle to operate properly?
The consensus is that the nozzle if there to lubricate the aux shaft gear. But is it true? The shaft gets lubricated at the top where the fuel pump sits. Oil will seep down from there. It might very well be that the nozzle is there to lubricate the oil seal on the pulley. It is aimed more at the oil seal than at the gear wheels.
If oil pressure is ok as you say, than the loss of pressure is negligible.
You can draw your conclusions from above.
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william
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
I cannot fully believe that if oilpressure is OK the engine is OK. The lubrificationcircuit is a combination of passages and gallerys supplying oil in series and paralell to the relevant bearings, cilinders and valvegear.
If oilpressure is lost via the now bigger opening due to the broken nozzle there can easilly be one or more components suffering from this while the oilpressure at the sensor is still fine...
The nozzle is a fragile thing. The timingchain can get caught behind it when maintenance is being done on the distribution. It will surely brake when the chain is 'janked' up trying to get it back on the sprockets.
After 40 odd years there must be several cars running with missing nozzles... Or have they all failed due to that fact?
If oilpressure is lost via the now bigger opening due to the broken nozzle there can easilly be one or more components suffering from this while the oilpressure at the sensor is still fine...
The nozzle is a fragile thing. The timingchain can get caught behind it when maintenance is being done on the distribution. It will surely brake when the chain is 'janked' up trying to get it back on the sprockets.
After 40 odd years there must be several cars running with missing nozzles... Or have they all failed due to that fact?
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
I remember well learning about the dreaded nozzle when I was building a 1600 engine with Harry Manning about 1985. He told me they are often broken with clumsy work replacing the timing chain.
I noticed that there was damage to the nozzle, and said to Harry "What should I do about this?".
Harry told me to cut it off and fill the hole with a self-tapping screw. He pointed out that I would have poor oil pressure without a nozzle, never mind any damage if it fell off and got itself into the works.
I asked about lubrication and he said - "Well it's swimming with oil there anyway!" And of course it is.
I have to say that as William observed, the nozzle is mounted on a main oil gallery; I find it strange that an engine would still have good pressure as shown on the gauge.
It doesn't matter where the gauge is in the circuit, pressure is pressure: either it's there or it isn't.
Paul
I noticed that there was damage to the nozzle, and said to Harry "What should I do about this?".
Harry told me to cut it off and fill the hole with a self-tapping screw. He pointed out that I would have poor oil pressure without a nozzle, never mind any damage if it fell off and got itself into the works.
I asked about lubrication and he said - "Well it's swimming with oil there anyway!" And of course it is.
I have to say that as William observed, the nozzle is mounted on a main oil gallery; I find it strange that an engine would still have good pressure as shown on the gauge.
It doesn't matter where the gauge is in the circuit, pressure is pressure: either it's there or it isn't.
Paul
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Huib
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
You have a good point when you say that the pressure may drop on the local branch which does not really show up on the pressure gauge but may ruin the main bearing on the same branch.
On most oil passages the Lancia engineers designed a narrow part to limit the oil passage. If you have an other crank case lying around you can check if this is the case with that nozzle. Its nose is rather wide. I would certainly expect a flow limiter somewhere.
If it was my engine I would replace the nozzle.
On most oil passages the Lancia engineers designed a narrow part to limit the oil passage. If you have an other crank case lying around you can check if this is the case with that nozzle. Its nose is rather wide. I would certainly expect a flow limiter somewhere.
If it was my engine I would replace the nozzle.
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william
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
Thanks Huib,
It is worth to check this theory on another crankcase. The thing is that I have a perfect little engine in my car and I hate the thought that I might have to take it out (again) and dismantle it.
It is worth to check this theory on another crankcase. The thing is that I have a perfect little engine in my car and I hate the thought that I might have to take it out (again) and dismantle it.
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andrea
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
When I bought my Fulvia Zagato in 1986, the nozzle was broken and the oil pressure was good. Twenty years later (and a lot of kms/miles) the car is still running in excellent conditions and the oil pressure is still very good even with the oil hot.
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
Well, all the main bearings are fed from a common gallery, so I don't see how one bearing could suffer in a local sense - it may be that there are tapered boring somewhere but I cannot recall ever having noticed any. Anyway the centre bearing always goes first - having to supply the two adjacent big ends and (through smaller passages) the cmashafts and valve gear.
I think that the nozzle was its own restrictor; if you cut one off you will see that there is a 3mm (approx) hole remaining - much bigger than the original nozzle end.
Paul
I think that the nozzle was its own restrictor; if you cut one off you will see that there is a 3mm (approx) hole remaining - much bigger than the original nozzle end.
Paul
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Justin
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
Has it yet occurred to anyone that your nozzle may already have been replaced with a screw?
Can you see without removing the water pump?
I know it's a very common mod due to the very common assembly error pointed out by Paul.
Jus
Can you see without removing the water pump?
I know it's a very common mod due to the very common assembly error pointed out by Paul.
Jus
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william
Re: oil spray nozzle gone
Paul you are right. I did some measurements on crankcases I found in my garage and without the nozzle the hole is 3mm and with about 1.5mm. There is no other restrictor. My 3mm drillbit was clearly showing through the fwd main bearing lube hole. A hole growing from 1.5 to 3mm must have an effect on main bearing lubrification.
I'm thinking about a way to block the hole without removing the engine but so far no brilliant ideas...
The nozzle is steel.
I'm thinking about a way to block the hole without removing the engine but so far no brilliant ideas...
The nozzle is steel.