International Lancia Forums

We've all got our own opinions on how to sort Lancia out - my question is, what would you do?

Given a free rein, here is what I'd do. First off, the Fulvia is not really that important to me, basically because I don't necessarily agree that what it stands for is what Lancia should be aiming for. Lancia's basic problem is a lot like Rover - to briefly recap, the Rover board of the 1990s decided that the direction the marque should head in was a 'relaxing', luxurious one, because that was what they saw as Rover's heyday, with the P5 and P6. What they forgot was that in those days, Rover was a dynamic car manufacturer with a number of innovative features on its models - the SD1 was praised widely, only for the curse of BL build quality to strike.

Now compare to Lancia. Fiat see Lancia's brand direction as really quite similar to Rover these days. Erm, no. Lancias in history are technologically advanced cars, cars with a sporting bent, a very high level of quality and dynamics, and my fear is that the new Fulvia does not subscribe to that philosophy. It is a luxurious sporting coupe, sure, but you got the impression it was to be luxury first and sporting second, in fitting in with Fiat's current idea of Lancia. Maybe it was the styling - a tad too classic for my taste, nice enough but in truth Lancia has never been about retro, and the Fulvia was, however much they deny it, retro. Trouble is, I could tell, and I didn't like it. It would have been a halo model but - and this is important - what sort of image was it going to project to the world of what Lancia is all about? Some believe that the new Fulvia was fantastic because it harked back to the most recent era before Fiat ownership, ergo it is what Lancia should stand for in the 21st century as well. This is wrong because firstly, I don't think that Fiat ownership really hasn't been as bad as people make out in terms of product (certainly the Beta is a great car, worthy of the Lancia name, and I do feel that many of the later products have been underrated), and secondly, brand values in the 1960s are not the same as brand values today.

Let me explain. The Fulvia is not as great a loss as many are making out, but what is absolutely critical is a new Delta, and quickly. Before it was cancelled I heard rumours floating around that there was to have been a new Delta, and this was the technical spec: standard four-wheel drive, hooked up to the new-generation petrol and diesel motors. The petrol motor was to have been the two-litre turbo five, as seen in the Fiat Coupe/Thesis, in three different states of tune. 205bhp, 250bhp, and 300bhp for a new Integrale, as a proper Audi S3/Golf R32/Focus Cosworth rival. Diesel motors would have been the new Multijet 2.4 five, again in a couple of different states of tune. Styling was to have been based on the Granturismo Stilnovo concept. Personally I think that with a little work this could have been an absolutely cracking-looking car, exactly what Lancia should stand for in the 21st century. It would be technologically advanced, futuristic looks, with interior lessons taken from the Thesis (very high level of quality). It would be a really proper rival for the new BMW 1-Series, Audi A3, etc. You could base it on the Stilo/Astra/148 floorplan - the 148 will have four-wheel drive, so that shouldn't be a problem. The engines are simply modified versions of existing units. The four-wheel drive system could be drawn from the system Alfa is about to launch in the 158. There really isn't any good reason why it couldn't be built, and more importantly be a serious rival - as long as Fiat a) don't skimp on quality and b) allowed Lancia's engineers to dial in their own dynamic characteristics.

Get a Lybra replacement back on the agenda, too, but don't resurrect the old Medea. Given that the styling was based on the Maserati Buran, I gather it was a real mess. Start from scratch - it doesn't matter if it is delayed, it is critical to get it right rather than get it fast. Base it on the same platform as the new Fiat Large, give it standard four-wheel drive as well. It helps to project a sophisticated brand image if you've got a marketing tool like that, and given that Alfas will be front, rear and four-wheel drive, it helps to differentiate them. Saloon and HPE body styles, the latter similar in concept to the forthcoming Saab 9-3 Sport Hatch - 5 doors, but otherwise a not-dissimilar concept to the Beta HPE in the seventies. It would use similar engines to the Delta, plus a modified version of the Fiat/GM all-aluminium V6. Not as heretical as you might think - Lancia's been borrowing engines for years, including the Alfa V6 (who would have thought it?), so as long as it is good enough I don't necessarily have a problem with it. It does promise a lot - standard variable valve timing, quad cams, and a whole lot of other stuff I can't remember. Make an HF version to compete with Audi's S4 and the BMW M3. For styling, I'd actually be pretty happy for it to go along the same broad lines as the Stilnovo concept, aka the new Delta. Once again, draw lessons from the interior of the Thesis - Fiat have, for their new Large car - and make it a really proper rival to the default-choice Germans.

If Fiat go ahead with their new Trepiuno concept, I actually don't see a future for the Ypsilon. They are extremely similar in intent, if not design, and in any case the Ypsilon is more of an Autobianchi anyway. Not that this is necessarily such a bad thing - if Lancia is to be pitched as a really serious rival for Audi, BMW and Mercedes, I think replacing the Ypsilon with the Trepiuno would not be such a bad thing. People who buy Lybras and Theses don't like associating with Ypsilon owners. It's a fact of life. Give the superminis to Fiat - Lancia's direct rivals wouldn't have one, as BMW's supermini is called Mini, Audi's take is a monstrously expensive, high-tech solution (the A2), and Mercedes doesn't have one at all (the A-Class is a Musa rival).

The Phedra and Musa. Let's be honest. These cars aren't doing Lancia's brand image any favours at all. The public perception of Lancia at the moment seems to be a higher-class Fiat - these cars don't exactly do much to change that image. Worse, they are simply reinforcing the 'relaxing luxury' image which I would like to rid Lancia of. If I had my way I'd let these cars run their life cycle and then not replace them, as they simply don't fit in with the brand image I want to project. I am open to suggestions to keeping them - the Phedra sells pretty well apparently - but there must be much more of a distinction between them and the Fiat ones. As in, preferably all-new sheetmetal. Don't see that happening too soon, so I wouldn't mind canning them.

I would not want a reskinned Fiat SUV (the proposed Pangea, due in 2007), but commercial reality may dictate that one is needed. It would hardly make Lancia alone, as BMW, Merc and Audi all have them, but I find them overpowering, vulgar and utterly pointless. If I had my way, there is absolutely no way it would get past me, but I fear it might be one of those that does.

I am also not in favour of a Stratos recreation - not that that will be happening anyway. Basically because it will be a retro pastiche, but also because there can only ever be one Stratos, and in trying to recreate it Lancia runs the very serious risk of diluting the original's magic. Anyway, it would be stepping on Alfa's toes a bit - probably best to leave the blatant retro stuff to them, eh? (8C Competizione, anyone?)

Finally, the Thesis. Of all of Lancia's current cars this is closest to what I envisage the new lineup being, but with a more evident sporting edge. After a shaky start I've grown to actually admire the styling (particularly after seeing one on the road), and the interior is absolutely first-class. In intent, the Thesis's replacement would do well not to deviate too far from its predecessor's design brief - although more forward-looking styling would be a plus. I'd like to see a dynamic setup similar to a Merc E-Class (but better) - it's not a sportscar, obviously, but the current comfort-oriented suspension is nevertheless a bit too soft for my liking.

Now that we have the core stuff, we can concentrate on the fun stuff. Alfa have a Villa D'Este Coupe and Cabrio pencilled in for 2007/8 - described as an elegant coupe and convertible based on the forthcoming, RWD/4WD, 168. The new Thesis will be based on the 168, so junk this plan, which doesn't really fit with Alfa all that well anyway, and make it a Lancia - hark back to the old days of Aurelia B24s and Flaminia Tourings, updated to a 21st century context. I am also very open to the idea of a Delta-based coupe, and, maybe, convertible, to go head-to-head with the 3-Series.

This proposal is designed to be a serious plan for Lancia to mount a revival. It is practical, achievable, and most of all, could actually happen because to the best of my knowledge all future Lancia projects are, for the time being at least, suspended. The technology and engineering expertise is all there, it can be shared with Fiat and Alfa Romeo, and basically it's just putting it in distinctively Lancia bodies - much like now, the Thesis and Ypsilon are essentially the same basic concept. It doesn't tread on Alfa's toes because while they're off making outright sports saloons and Ferrari-rivalling supercars, Lancia would take the technological high road, and while not explicitly sporting, would still have a sporty feel - like the feel Audi constantly want to achieve but never quite seem able to. I have faith that Fiat and Lancia's combined resources are more than capable of producing a car which can beat the best that Germany or Japan can offer. Lancia has recently proven that its styling house can still rival the best, Fiat is one of the car manufacturers at the cutting edge of developing new technology - especially diesels - and all it needs is money and commitment. Because there is a lot of component sharing, it shouldn't be as expensive as it might first appear. You do all of this, and Lancia will generate serious revenues, of that I am sure - for many people, Italian style and flair beats German sterility every time. The Lancia name is not irrecoverably tarnished, of that I am sure - it simply needs proper product.

I would be very interested to hear the thoughts of fellow Lancisti on my proposals, pool the best ideas, and (maybe?) send them to Fiat?

Reading this I was torn between saying "just give it up" or joining in the fantasy. I'll do the latter.

I agree that Lancia should be pitched as a technological breed; that's what it always was. I'd recommend that all models be four wheel drive.

Coupes are essential. There should be a coupe variant of each major line, certainly including the Thesis, Lybra and Delta. I agree that Autobianchis should not be sold as Lancias.

The popularity of SUVs is cresting. Lancia would do well to distinguish itself as a breed that never bothered with them. Porsche & VW will almost certainly lose lots of money on theirs. Porsche, in particular, is seriously eroding its focus and credibility with the Cayenne. Much like Cadillac with its execrable Escalade models.

The sharing of mechanicals is depressing but presumably unavoidable. Suspension design, however, should be totally unique to Lancia--it's what the company is really known for.

Lancia should return to the U.S. with these models, but properly fund the dealer network and parts distribution. And treat the customers like they matter instead of treating them like they are lucky to be able to buy the car. It's difficult to thrive economically as a specialty car maker without the U.S. market.

I'm quite impressed, Shant(y)

I don't intend to analyze your whole posting - there's just one thing i'd like to hear some more opinions on:
The passage "People who buy Lybras and Theses don't like associating with Ypsilon owners" might be an intersting issue to argue about...

Is there - perhaps with the success of the Y 840 - some sort of gap between those who own that type of popular city rover an those who own the "supreme" midsize- and luxury-Lancias like the Lybra and Thesis?

Randy, on the issue of completely unique suspension components...I agonised long and hard over this one, because I really want this plan to be viable. In the end I came back to a suggestion I heard a while ago. Either you develop completely new suspension for Lancias and then filter it down through the range to help recoup the cost (like the rear suspension on the Lybra and Thesis), or you use Fiat/Alfa suspension, tweaked and tuned by Lancia engineers to give a unique feel. This isn't hard if you use different shock absorbers and springs within the same basic suspension framework.

To be honest I'm still undecided over it. Again, open to suggestions or alternatives. I'd prefer the first option but I think the second is more realistic.

Excellent that SUVs are dropping off - Lancia doesn't have to make one after all. Having thought about it a bit more, keep a Delta-based coupe - like a Fulvia, basically, but not retro - but perhaps drop the cabrio, and instead have a coupe/cabrio line on the Medea, more of a 3-Series rival that way.

I really did think a lot about whether I wanted the Fulvia. It's such a tricky one to pin down. Because I've never seen it in the metal, I have to go on photos. From some angles it looks absolutely stunning, from others I think the proportion of body to glasshouse is slightly mismatched, and the front overhang is a bit heavy. But in truth, these things are details. But as I said, it is harking back, not looking forward, and so while there are some nice touches it doesn't represent where Lancia should be going.

Returning to the US market...whoa, let's not get too far into the realms of fantasy, Alfa's comeback (which was on the cards since 2000) was cancelled earlier this year...

As for that Ypsilon vs Lybra/Thesis comment nilsfx, it's simply a reflection of what goes on with other brands. People who buy Theses, in particular, expect top-line service. Part of it is dealer attitude - if you service 20 Ypsilons for every Thesis, which do you think you're going to concentrate on? - but more than that, there is a 'snob factor' of associating with a 'class below'. Why do you think BMW didn't make a supermini of their own and used the Mini badge? To an extent, I think BMW are pushing their 'upmarket' credibility with the new 1-Series - but it does have a unique selling point, rear-wheel drive. The Delta would have 4WD - same thing. It's the same with Toyota, by the way - that's why they have Lexus...

OK, you get the job. Here´s just some grist for the mill.

First time I saw the BMW Series 1 I thought that it was a niche that Lancia could have filled (in appropriate Lancia style of course). I agree that Thesis owners don´t like co-habiting with Ypsilon owners. If I understood rightly, Audi are to bin the A2, despite having 5 star quality and reliability ratings.

I agree with the central theme: you cannot divorce "luxury" from "real quality" (not the aplique type) and a good helping of engineering excellence/avant garde. The Thesis was going in the right direction (IMHO) and I agree that the previous offerings are not half as bad as the market would suggest. Cars as consumer products have to be v. customer focused, which Lancia has not been in the past. Component sharing is not an option but a fact of life. Any manufacturer in the mass market has to go this way to be cost effective.

SUV(?) - Makes sense where I live. The last car that I bought was a Subaru Forester. My shopping list went as follows

(i) Safety - Bigger and heavier is better (just physics). Forester came top of class in US tests. Accident statistics on Portuguese roads are worst in Europe and I have a two year old daughter.
(ii) When I go out.. - I don´t want to get stuck in the middle of the forest. Portuguese roads are a series of holes stuck together with bits of tarmac. In the winter the tarmac gets washed away. Signposts? Just ask the locals and they'll direct you across a couple of fields to the middle of nowhere.
(iii) Big enough to put the kids stuff. (Space for tricycles and more)
(iv) Engineering excellence - Can´t fault the Subaru flat-four - except for consumption ;( Forester is well put together but still lots of ergonomic niggles.

Downsides are that it is not exactly pretty, eats tyres and takes bends like a cow.

IMHO SUV´s should be SUV`s from the start. Alfa 156´s on pumped up suspension are for burn-boys and will never be a serious contender. Should Lancia build SUV´s? Never say never - after all Lancia built one of the first MPV´s that never got comercialized.... There is always room to reinvent a product.

One of my biggest hopes for the Lancia brand would be the sporting executive coupé. This is a market still not exploited to the full, and the sucess of the Peugeot 406 coupé is testament to the demand in this area. Lancia has a great history in this area of car production and I think that this could be a volume seller.

Lancia's MPV was an abomination: exhibit A in the case against Fiat's handling of the company. Except for a specialized few genuinely needed for conditions like you report in Portugal, they will go the way of the oozlum bird.

Shame you have not seen the new Fulvia. The photographs don't do the car any honour. I was absolutely thrilled by the beauty of this car. Yes, retro in the sense that it is based on the old Fulvia but so 2004...

The Fulvia does not have to be a retro project. In fact, the specs are very 2004 and beyond: aluminium body, very low petrol consumption, combine that with a perfect and up-to-date suspension and you have a very un-retro car. Why not build in a Multijet diesel engine with a sequential gear box?

Your suggestion to build Delta's with between 205 and 300 BHP is interesting but it's not for a very big market. I would love to drive a car like that, but where? Better to have a nimble Coupe with advanced and modern features and which can act a a basis for future Lancia's (in concept and technology).

Guus

Don't get me wrong - the Fulvia's spec really appeals to me. As a devout non-driver aid guy, I love the fact that it's a back-to-basics, 950kg coupe. It also looks pretty good. But let's be fair here - I would have been a lot more kind if it doesn't look the way it does. As you say, it is a modern car - so why doesn't it have modern styling overtones? Of course you can tell from the details it was penned in 2003, but equally you can also tell that in ambience it harks back to the sixties. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but as an image-builder for a marque like Lancia? No, it's not right. Instead, why not keep the same specs and put it in an equally pretty, but more forward-looking, body, stick it on the proposed Delta floorplan, and flog it as a true antidote to 3-Series syndrome?

On the contrary, the Delta would have a far bigger market than the Fulvia. The Fulvia is a niche car in a niche market - I would be impressed if it sold even 10,000 per year. The Delta would be expected to take sales from the BMW 1-Series, VW Golf, Audi A3, and upmarket versions of the Astra/Focus/Megane. Before it was scrapped, Lancia's business plan for the Delta envisaged sales of around 50,000 per year.

Once you have the money-making stuff, then you can talk about niche models like coupes and convertibles.

Oh, and by the way - is it MPVs or SUVs which are going to become extinct, Randy? (Or, indeed, both?)

Sorry, I screwed that one up. I was referring to SUVs.

In the U.S., it has been found that accident rates are much higher in them than in cars such as the Porsche Boxster because of their clumsiness and the false confidence they give the driver.

MPVs are obviously useful utilitarian vehicles. I do object to Lancia building them though. That seems much more appropriate for Fiat.

It should be remembered that Lancia has always been a specialty niche auto maker. It is not, and cannot be, all things to all people. The only consequence of Lancia building MPVs or SUVs is to muddy up their marque image and credibility with their real market.

I am also of the opinion that the decision of Fiat et al to never sell another car in the U.S. dooms the entire enterprise to extinction. The U.S. is one of, if not the, leading market for specialty niche type cars. There is approximately one car for every two human beings in the U.S.. Because of this, car makers are able to profitably sell fairly specialized vehicles as a matter of course. Coupes have always been big sellers here. The decision not bring Alfa back is stupefying. That marque had at least 50 years of goodwill in this country and a fairly decent dealer network. The last models sold here sold well, considering that one of them was wildly outmoded and the other was a big expensive sedan. That decision alone proves that Fiat's upper management is totally incompetent. Instead, Fiat is trying to sell Maserati here, when what Americans remember of that marque is the disastrous Biturbo--truly a reputation-destroying debacle. I know--I own one. If I weren't a car guy with a high threshold for faulty behavior in a car, I would have sent it to a crusher long ago.

my first action would be to get some real muscle back into the current range, this could immediately improve lancias profile. the current range is lacking anything with any real power. an ypsilon with the 1.8 vvt would be nice as would a lybra with a five cylinder turbo. lancia always used to be discrete (honourable exception for integrale) but fast none of the current range appeals without this performance edge. secondly they need to develop something in the delta/147/stilo class the lack of a delta replacement is a real disaster. wraping it up there would need to be some serious and proper marketing based on a proud heritage. Over the last few years it seems as if fiat didn't really want to promote lancia at all.