Transverse (horizontal) shaft oil seal (item #22 of the Fulvia steering box components diagram) is leaking.
As the vertical shaft seal (item #23) is not leaking I would prefer not to have to remove the drop arm and dismantle the steering box to replace the leaking seal - is it possible to replace the seal without removing the transverse shaft or should I get the drop arm removed and dismantle the steering box?
I intend to use Penrite Steering Box Lube (special semi-fluid steering box oil) in place of SAE 90 oil when the sterring box is fitted back into the car.
S2 1600 HF Steering Box oil seal renewal
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Huib
Re: S2 1600 HF Steering Box oil seal renewal
The Penrite Steering Box Lube is I think not really oil but the fluid grease similar (or equal) to the stuff being used on trucks with central greasing which is always under pressure.
The steering houses all leak. This is strange as there is neither high speed rotation nor high temperature
Usually it is the horizontal shaft that is leaking. One of explanations I can think of is that the horizontal shaft may move radially (sideways), The vertical shaft has three full complement needle bearings which are pretty strong and don't allow any radial movement. These have to be tested nevertheless. If the steering box has been without oil they may have worn. The top one in the cover goes without oil first and is often rusted.
The horizontal shaft has only two angular contact ball bearings which have to be adjusted very very carefully. If not completely without axial play it will also have radial play.
On the horizontal shaft it is possible to use a speedi sleeve if there is wear from the seal.
Another possible cause for the leakage may be that the horizontal shaft is not really horizontal but pointing slightly upwards. Dirt collects easier on the seal. The cause for wear of shafts and seals is dirt (apart from lack of lubrication). There might be a seal with dust lip in the correct size. Or put a V ring around the shaft which is also a good way of keeping dirt away from seals
I would completely dismantle it now you are at it and do a thorough job. And use good oil as prescribed. Perhaps a grade thicker as Paul de Raymond mentioned but if you do a good job it should not be necessary.
Do not underestimate the enormous forces on the contact point between worm and roller.
The Fulvia steering box is a marvel of engineering. Take care of it!
The steering houses all leak. This is strange as there is neither high speed rotation nor high temperature
Usually it is the horizontal shaft that is leaking. One of explanations I can think of is that the horizontal shaft may move radially (sideways), The vertical shaft has three full complement needle bearings which are pretty strong and don't allow any radial movement. These have to be tested nevertheless. If the steering box has been without oil they may have worn. The top one in the cover goes without oil first and is often rusted.
The horizontal shaft has only two angular contact ball bearings which have to be adjusted very very carefully. If not completely without axial play it will also have radial play.
On the horizontal shaft it is possible to use a speedi sleeve if there is wear from the seal.
Another possible cause for the leakage may be that the horizontal shaft is not really horizontal but pointing slightly upwards. Dirt collects easier on the seal. The cause for wear of shafts and seals is dirt (apart from lack of lubrication). There might be a seal with dust lip in the correct size. Or put a V ring around the shaft which is also a good way of keeping dirt away from seals
I would completely dismantle it now you are at it and do a thorough job. And use good oil as prescribed. Perhaps a grade thicker as Paul de Raymond mentioned but if you do a good job it should not be necessary.
Do not underestimate the enormous forces on the contact point between worm and roller.
The Fulvia steering box is a marvel of engineering. Take care of it!
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Christopher Adams
Re: S2 1600 HF Steering Box oil seal renewal
Huib,
I have just dismantled, cleaned and reassembled a steering box for my series 2 coupe. This was a replacement for the one originally in the car which had been run low on oil with resulting seizure of the top bearings and wear on the main vertical shaft. With new seals and topped up with a mix of gear oil and molydenum grease (whisked into a nice consistency) all seems good.
But,
the steering input shaft adjustment is by the thickness of the shim under the cover plate, how do you check tolerances, and adjust the bearings? Do you have any figures on tolerances and where/how to measure them?
thanks
Chris
I have just dismantled, cleaned and reassembled a steering box for my series 2 coupe. This was a replacement for the one originally in the car which had been run low on oil with resulting seizure of the top bearings and wear on the main vertical shaft. With new seals and topped up with a mix of gear oil and molydenum grease (whisked into a nice consistency) all seems good.
But,
the steering input shaft adjustment is by the thickness of the shim under the cover plate, how do you check tolerances, and adjust the bearings? Do you have any figures on tolerances and where/how to measure them?
thanks
Chris
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Huib
Re: S2 1600 HF Steering Box oil seal renewal
There is unfortunately no data to be found in the Lancia documentation. At least I haven't found it.
Volvo used a similar steering box at the time. Their workshop manual gives an exact procedure including the resulting torque for turning the input shaft and how to measure it. We tried that procedure on several steering boxes, but it was not a great succes. If I remember correctly, steering turned out to be too heavy.
Volvo used a similar steering box at the time. Their workshop manual gives an exact procedure including the resulting torque for turning the input shaft and how to measure it. We tried that procedure on several steering boxes, but it was not a great succes. If I remember correctly, steering turned out to be too heavy.
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Christopher Adams
Re: S2 1600 HF Steering Box oil seal renewal
so Huib, the only thing is to set it so it moves freely but doesn't allow 'play'. The shim obviously sets the tension. Did you actually measure the thickness of the shim and replace with a thicker one to take up play? or was it fine reassembling with all original parts?
Mine subjectively felt fine on reassembly so I didn't get too concerned.
Paul, I see you have an NZ email address. I didn't know of any series 2 HFs in the country. Where abouts are you?
Chris
Mine subjectively felt fine on reassembly so I didn't get too concerned.
Paul, I see you have an NZ email address. I didn't know of any series 2 HFs in the country. Where abouts are you?
Chris
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Huib
Re: S2 1600 HF Steering Box oil seal renewal
Every assembly is a new job. You have to cut yourself a stack of shims. But if it feels good after just careful reassembly, it is good too I suppose. Just take plenty of time with all your senses on sharp and don't just quickly bolt it together.
Feeling with the fingers is the best you can do. It does not come close however to 1200 kg going around a bend at 140km/h or a hole in te road at 120 km/h.
Feeling with the fingers is the best you can do. It does not come close however to 1200 kg going around a bend at 140km/h or a hole in te road at 120 km/h.
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Huib
I forgot
Do NOT polish the shafts where the seals sit. Polishing results in lubrication starvation which destroys the seal. You need 6 - 8 microns of roughness. Grinding would thus be the right type of treatment. This goes for any seal anywhere in the Fulvia. On the steering box you cannot grind the shafts. They are super hardened. Your options are:
1. putting rings under the seal so that it changes position and use a thinner seal.
3. use an SKF speedi sleeve. Speedi sleeves have exactly the right properties for seals. The standard speedi sleeve lasts a long time. The Gold speedi sleeve is as hard as dimanond and will last longer than you. A speedi sleeve cannot be used on the vertical shaft because of the splenes.
1. putting rings under the seal so that it changes position and use a thinner seal.
3. use an SKF speedi sleeve. Speedi sleeves have exactly the right properties for seals. The standard speedi sleeve lasts a long time. The Gold speedi sleeve is as hard as dimanond and will last longer than you. A speedi sleeve cannot be used on the vertical shaft because of the splenes.
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Paul
Re: S2 1600 HF Steering Box oil seal renewal
Chris, Huib,
Thanks for all your detailed replies - I am going to dismantle the steering box and check it throughly. I'll let you know how I get on.
I'm just outside Christchurch.
I've owned my HF (Lusso) for 22 years and she came with me from the UK 10 years ago. Back in the early '90's she appear on the front cover of the LMC magazine (UCM 600L).
I think there are three 1600 HF's in NZ, a mix of S1 and S2.
Ciao,
Paul.
Thanks for all your detailed replies - I am going to dismantle the steering box and check it throughly. I'll let you know how I get on.
I'm just outside Christchurch.
I've owned my HF (Lusso) for 22 years and she came with me from the UK 10 years ago. Back in the early '90's she appear on the front cover of the LMC magazine (UCM 600L).
I think there are three 1600 HF's in NZ, a mix of S1 and S2.
Ciao,
Paul.
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Huib
Re: S2 1600 HF Steering Box oil seal renewal
I happen to be doing three steering boxes at the moment myself with extra care as I really want to be able to put in the prescribed EP90 oil or even better the synthetic 75W90. There are very few really good steering boxes around. These three happen to be good and I would like to keep them that way. One is for one of my own cars. The other two are for customers.
Unfortunately one cannot use a speedi sleeve for the worm shaft. The flange is just in the wrong position. So I am grinding the worm shaft where the seal sits. At that section the shaft is 19,42. The seal is for shafts of 19,0mm. So I can easily take 0,1 or 0,2 mm off.
I am also grinding the section of the roller shaft where the seal sits.
The handbook for seals say, the surface is ok if it does not catch your finger nail. It alo says that one should not polish shafts to prevent lubrication starvation. Well, I figure that if I see where the seal sat, the seal has in fact at least polished the shaft. So whether it catches my finger nail or not, I will grind the surface.
I have found seals with dust lip. 28x40x5 for the bottom and 19x30x7 for the worm shaft. The 7 for the worm shaft is just a bit high. However if you press the front bearing race out, there are two shim rings between it and the housing. The inner diameter of these shims is smaller than the outer diameter of the seal. If you replace those with shims having a larger inner diameter, the seal can be pushed in a bit further.
The seals are NBR. I would have preferred Viton.Unfortunately no Viton seals with dust lip in the desired dimensions. With some good silicone grease between the two lips and on the outer lip the NBR ones should also last a long time. There is special silicone grease for rubber things like O rings and oil seals.
Putting the seals in is tricky because of the splenes on the shafts. Sliding seals over splenes is the surest way of destroying a seal. So tape the splenes or use heath shrinkable tube and lubricate well. It means you have to put the roller shaft in first through the needle bearings. Then tape the splenes. Then put the seal in.
I will also skim the rear cover and both sides of the ring between rear bearing and cover to make sure everything is clean, flat and parallel.
I have shims rings of 0,1 and 0,3 and 0,5 mm with an outer diamater as close as possible to 46 mm and an inner diameter well above 30. In addition I use brass sheet of 0,05 and 0,025 mm to cut shims if necessary.
The manufacturer adjusted the worm shaft bearings by stacking gaskets for the rear cover in the desired thicknesses. One can also shim of course by putting shim rings between the rear cover and the steel ring.
All parts have to be thoroughly cleaned an assembly has to be done in a clean environment. Any particle will end up under the seals eventually and cause leakage. Filling with oil is also tricky. You want to make sure that oil also fills the cavity under the rear cover to prevent corrosion and thus prevent dirt particles. There is no hole at the top of that cavity to let air out. So oil is not going to fill it completely unless you take special action such as putting the steering box on its back and wiggle it a bit or take the applicable bolt out of the top cover.
My own steering box came from a donor car (S1 Zagato spider) that had only 28.000 kms. Everything inside the steering box is like new. Except the rear bearing of the worm shaft. Dull steel balls already made me suspicious. The balls have pits and so do both the bearing races. The steel balls are 7,938mm which is a standard size. I am making the grinding stones for the races. Let's hope it works. Otherwise I have to turn some off the shaft and put angular contact SKF bearings in which als have to be sleeved to get the proper outer diameter.
Any way the steel balls should be shiny like mirrors. If not you have a problem.
Unfortunately one cannot use a speedi sleeve for the worm shaft. The flange is just in the wrong position. So I am grinding the worm shaft where the seal sits. At that section the shaft is 19,42. The seal is for shafts of 19,0mm. So I can easily take 0,1 or 0,2 mm off.
I am also grinding the section of the roller shaft where the seal sits.
The handbook for seals say, the surface is ok if it does not catch your finger nail. It alo says that one should not polish shafts to prevent lubrication starvation. Well, I figure that if I see where the seal sat, the seal has in fact at least polished the shaft. So whether it catches my finger nail or not, I will grind the surface.
I have found seals with dust lip. 28x40x5 for the bottom and 19x30x7 for the worm shaft. The 7 for the worm shaft is just a bit high. However if you press the front bearing race out, there are two shim rings between it and the housing. The inner diameter of these shims is smaller than the outer diameter of the seal. If you replace those with shims having a larger inner diameter, the seal can be pushed in a bit further.
The seals are NBR. I would have preferred Viton.Unfortunately no Viton seals with dust lip in the desired dimensions. With some good silicone grease between the two lips and on the outer lip the NBR ones should also last a long time. There is special silicone grease for rubber things like O rings and oil seals.
Putting the seals in is tricky because of the splenes on the shafts. Sliding seals over splenes is the surest way of destroying a seal. So tape the splenes or use heath shrinkable tube and lubricate well. It means you have to put the roller shaft in first through the needle bearings. Then tape the splenes. Then put the seal in.
I will also skim the rear cover and both sides of the ring between rear bearing and cover to make sure everything is clean, flat and parallel.
I have shims rings of 0,1 and 0,3 and 0,5 mm with an outer diamater as close as possible to 46 mm and an inner diameter well above 30. In addition I use brass sheet of 0,05 and 0,025 mm to cut shims if necessary.
The manufacturer adjusted the worm shaft bearings by stacking gaskets for the rear cover in the desired thicknesses. One can also shim of course by putting shim rings between the rear cover and the steel ring.
All parts have to be thoroughly cleaned an assembly has to be done in a clean environment. Any particle will end up under the seals eventually and cause leakage. Filling with oil is also tricky. You want to make sure that oil also fills the cavity under the rear cover to prevent corrosion and thus prevent dirt particles. There is no hole at the top of that cavity to let air out. So oil is not going to fill it completely unless you take special action such as putting the steering box on its back and wiggle it a bit or take the applicable bolt out of the top cover.
My own steering box came from a donor car (S1 Zagato spider) that had only 28.000 kms. Everything inside the steering box is like new. Except the rear bearing of the worm shaft. Dull steel balls already made me suspicious. The balls have pits and so do both the bearing races. The steel balls are 7,938mm which is a standard size. I am making the grinding stones for the races. Let's hope it works. Otherwise I have to turn some off the shaft and put angular contact SKF bearings in which als have to be sleeved to get the proper outer diameter.
Any way the steel balls should be shiny like mirrors. If not you have a problem.