International Lancia Forums

I have been told that my series 1 Rallye 1.3 would benefit from electronic ignition. Any comments on the pros/cons and any recommended brands, would be appreciated.

Any car with conventional breaker ignition benefits from electronic ignition. Definetely a relatively highly tuned car as the Fulvia 1,3S.
On my HF1200 I fitted an MSD 6a ignition box. With this system you keep the points but they only trigger a signal and hence do not wear anymore. Further advantage is that the conventional system acts as a "flying spare" for the unlikely event that your electronic box fails.
When I fitted the box I had to retard the ignition because the spark is immediate and ignites the mixture much faster due to the stronger spark.
pickup is much better from low revs and it seems that at higher revs (+6500) there is more power.

To generate a very high voltage such as for spark plugs (or for TV sets and monitors using picture tubes) one needs several components:

1. inductor (ignition coil in cars, horizontal deflection yoke in TV's)
2. capacitor (condensor in the distributor or the flyback capacitor in TV's)
3. switch (contact breaker in distributor, line output transistor or line output tube in TV's)
4. supply voltage (battery in cars, switched mode power supply or rectified mains in TV's)

The way it works is simple. When the switch is close current starts to flow through the inductor. Initially the current is zero. The current increases linearly over time. The waveform is a sawtooth. The amount of energy stored in the inductor is determined by the time the switched is closed and the current is allowed to flow

As soon as the switch opens the current reverses and charges the capacitor. The voltage accross the capacitor is a half sinewave.

The amount of energy that was stored in the inductor determines the peak amplitude of the sinewave voltage. In your car, the inductor (ignition coil) has a fixed inductance, the capacitor has a fixed capacitance. The battery voltage is always between 12V and 14V. The only parameter that changes is the time the points are closed. At low rpm the points are closed for a relatively long time resulting in a high ignition voltage. At high rpm the points are closed for a very short time. The ignition voltage is much lower.

When you replace the points with a black box called electronic ignition, none of the above parameters chance. The voltage at the spark plugs is exactly the same.

The way the black box works makes it necessary to remove the capacitor form the distributor. There is a new capacitor in the black box which has the same value as the original capacitor has or at least should have which is 2 microfarad.

If there is no capacitor the voltage would theoretically rise to infinity. The ignition coil however self destructs long before infinity is reached.

Note that the capacitor and the inductor (ignition coil) form a tuned LC circuit. Exactly the same circuit as used to tune radio's to a certain frequency. The values of the inductor and capacitor are important to get the right voltage.

Now if an electronics ignition improves the engines performance than the conclusion is that either the points were not properly set or the capacitor was bad. The capacitor (also called condensor) is about the most neglected part in any car. The majority are low cost paper film capacitors where a few molecules change structure every time a spark is generated. After some years the value has changed too much to be effective. Or it may become internally short circuited, in which case there is no spark at all.

If an electronic ignition improves the performance, the most likely reason is the new capacitor that came in the black box. Assuming that you have your point correctly adjusted all the time.

I replace capacitors in the distributor regularly and write the date of replacement on them. If the capacitor is of the correct value and the points are properly set and of good quality, the points will last 50.000kms. Maybe more.

More sophisticated electronic units have a built in switched mode power supply which increases the battery voltage to about 200V. These are expensive and require special ingnition coils which are also expensive. These units, called capacitive discharge units, are excellent and necessary for high and very high rpms. For standard Fulvia engines which go up to 6200rpm they have no benefit.

If a standard Fulvia engine would benefit from such a high power unit, the first conclusion would be that the mixture is incorrect. The fuel air mixture has to be within a narrow range to ignite easily. If it is outside that range one needs an increasingly stronger spark to ignite the mixture.

The only benefit from electronic ignition would be that you would not have to readjust the points. It is thus more a maintenance than performance story. Since you have to do a lot of service on an S1 Fulvia such as greasing and oil plus filter changes the overal maintenance benefit is marginal.

Your car is now nearly 40 years old. I doubt an electronic ignition will last 40 years. So, if you want another 40 years of reliable service, my choice would be points and change the capacitor every two years.

Wow. Thanks for your information and advice!!

I disagree with some points Huib.
- even the simplest type of electronic iginition will improve in the following way: by replacing the points by an electronic switch, the current that flows through the coil when "charging" it can be increased. Meaning you can use a coil with less resistance and a better inductance. If you would use that coil with points, the sparks that are generated by this higher current across them would damage the points too much (when the points open). So now you can store the same energy in a shorter time which solves the back side of convential ignition of only be able to provide 18000 pulses per second. Plus: you must use a different coil for this benifit.

- I would think the rise of current in the coil during the closing period is not linear with time. It would reach infinity when closed for good. It is exponentially going up to the 12V if you ask me. Which is good for higher revs. Otherwise there would almost be no energy stored in the coil.

- Then the capacitor. I am driving home tonight in my fulvia. I will take the capacitor OUT before I leave, and my guess is that I will be home in the same time. It does effect the output of the coil, but I believe that is not the reason it is there. It is there to make sure the the voltage over the open points does not become infitity as you stated. Because it will arc over the points and annoy radio users, but more importantly (to me) it makes the points to detoriate over time because of these arcs. And that is exactly where these electronic ignitions do their best to prevent this.

But I agree (as so often, Huib) that you have a point in your 4point explination. If you only replace your breaker points, there is no bigger spark coming out (but without pitted points, timing is better though). Meaning you should add another coil as well. Which most people do not do, by the way.

Then the empirical side:
- being hit by the ignition of a fulvia is a nice feeling. Give me more.
- being hit by an electronic ignition on an 80's car is quite annoying. I will preferably not touch the chassis as well when that happens again.
- being hit by the MSD box of William you will only experience once. You might live after it, but it is VERY painful.

Using William's solution on further standard components like coil, cables and plugs will cause light in the dark. Sparks everywhere! (also based on my own experiments).

Plus William, I believe you had to retard your ignition is because the spark of the CD system is more steep. Meaning quicker. But also short as a consequence. Even so short, it will ignite a couple of times per cycle at lower revs. Otherwise the mixture could fail to ignite.

Peter,
Allow me to answer your points one by one. Putting in another coil with lower inductance and lower resistance does indeed change the situation. There you are changing one of the four parameters. I have not read the specifications of all electronic units on the market. The ones I have seen, just allow coils like the Klitz OEM coil (one of the original coils of the Fulvia) or the blue Bosch coil which most probably have installed by now. If one goes to a coil with lower inductance, the output drive capabilities of the electronic unit have to be checked as well as the way the electronics handle the current at low rpm or no rpm. One of the advantages of electronics is that it is easy to limit the time the semiconductor switch is closed. A sort of variable dwell angle. It is necessary to have this circuitry limiting the time the switch is closed to avoid overloading the coil.

The current rise is indeed not linear. The rise is however not exponential but the contrary. The current initially rises linearly with time like a true sawtooth and then tapers off to a constant value. The constant value is determined by the resistance. Earlier coils had an external resistor. Later coils have an internal resistor. This resistance is necessary to limit the current in case the engine is not running, the points are closed and the contact switch is on. If there was no resistance the current would continue to rise untill the wires and / or the battery melt. What the current does when the engine does not run is not important as long as it does not blow up things. The resistor has some effect at low rpm. This is of no concern too as the spark voltage is high enough anyway. At higher rpm's the current does not get out of the sawtooth phase. It is the other way around from what you state.

You can take the capacitor out. It will function for some time. However the voltage will rapidly rise to a very high value which will not only burn the contact points but also damage the insulation of the many meters of wire inside the coil which will immediately or ultimately lead to self destruction of the coil. There is quite a bit of parasitic capacitance in the windings. Also the coupling between secundary and primary is not that good (on purpose) which causes large overshoots of the primary voltage even if the voltage at the END of the HT cable is ultimately limited to the voltage at which the spark plug fires.
The capacitor has to be there. It is the way this type of circuitry works. The coil and the capacitor (and the fixed advance) have been designed and dimensioned to work together. The ignition coil has purposely been wound as a "bad" transformer with parasitic capacitance and loose magnetic coupling. The purpose is to have a "dirty" sinewave in the flyback period with lots of ringing at the top so that there is a series of sparks rather than one spark.
Again the value of the capacitor is important. Together with the inductance of and stray inductances and stray capacitances in the coil it produces the right controlled "dirty" waveform to have best ignition. It is also part of the chain of parameters that determine the fixed ignition advance as given in the documentation.

I am not participating in a contest to have the strongest spark. I am a humble Fulvista who is doing what he can to enjoy his Fulvia every day. A well running and reliable engine contributes to that.
The timing of the spark or in other words the start of combustion is not really the primary goal. The important thing is the end of combustion. The combustion is an avalanche process. Some molecules are ignited which in turn ignite more and so on. A very strong spark ignites more molecules and skips the first part of the avalanche. As a result the end of combustion is advanced. The same effect would be obtained by advancing the ignition.

I usually have a fixed ignition advance between 8 and 10 degrees. My engines run very well at 18 degrees fixed advance. The rolling road tester proved that one of my 302 engines produced 2HP more at 6000 rpm with the ignition at 18 degrees instead of 8 degrees. The reason is that the piston is nearer TDC at the end of combustion. The gasses find themselves in a smaller volume and thus exert a higher pressure on the piston. However, the crank is more in a vertical position, thus the forces on the bearings are also higher. Also the much higher pressure causes more load on the compression rings and more gasses escape to the sump. The result is much faster wear of bearings, very dirty piston rings and mayonaise in the oil circuit.

Installing a high power capacitive discharge electronic ignition unit, preferably multi spark, requires to go through the whole procedure of optimising the advanced ignition for best compromise between power and low wear.

Huib, Interesting indeed that manufacturers of electronic ignitions do not advise you to change coils. I have one of those MSD coils and they are quite different than the blue bosch ones that you indeed see a lot.

But very correct observation that the ringing effect causes a longer spark. And I agree that is very much caused by the condensor. It is also interesting to know what a worn condensor does. That might be worse than no condensor (I got home very well last night without it....). But the point I tried to make is that the ignition works without it. It will damage itself, the spark will maybe come later because of the arcing over the points and the form is not optimal. I hear a lot of people say that the condensor is being loaded and that that energy is being transformed by the coil. And without it it would not work. I trust that idea's is gone by your arguments. I enjoy reading those by the way! And the exponential function I meant is like exp(-1/tau). Maybe that is not called exponential, but it reaches 1 in infinity.

But for Mac: I have two 1600's which are tuned. For both I do NOT use electronic ignition. If you maintain the original system well it will do its job as Huib says. And all these plastic pickups (hall sensor, or even a led) that most of these luminition type of ignitions have can not be maintained easily in the field. And they will not last. I am experimenting with a MSD 6AL, but that means also different coil, different leads and for sure different sparks. These would melt otherwise. And then the timing is a pain indeed. As is the whole dynamic advance mechanism on a modified engine. Like Huib, I am watching my advance. But then at max revs. @ 36degrees BTDC.

Mac,

If you wish to gain from the experience of many Italian car enthusiasts here in the US, then you can use a system from Crane, that has been around for many years now. Its a optically triggered electronic system, very simple to install, at a very reasonable cost. One uses a Bosch Blue coil with the base system. Crane does have other systems with which one can add even more powerful coils if that is what one wishes. The system I use is their XR-700. I installed two of these, one in 1998 on a 1.3 S1 Coupe, and then on the 1.3 GTE in 1999. Ever since, I have not even glanced at these components and they have proved utterly reliable. This is the one basic system I can think of that does help transform any Fulvia into a reliable, dependable car to drive. Please log onto www.cranecams.com for even more detail.

I do remember when I installed these systems, certain European Lancia enthusiasts expressed their disbelief that such a thing could ever work well, even less, ever be reliable. Why, what would I do, it would break and I would be stuck out on the road with no possiblility of repair? Nonsense. You can include the original points and condensor and a couple of tools in a small box in the car, if you have such worries. Back in 2001, we left the Washington DC area for the Alfa Romeo convention in Nashville, Tenn. Our caravan was our 1969 1.3 GTE along with Joe Fillip's excellent 1971 Alfa Giulia Super 1300. It was a 800 mile drive one direction, in 95 degree F heat. Both cars never missed a beat and we averaged 125 kmph for the journey. And yes, both cars had the excellent Crane XR-700 systems in place.

If you wish to continue to play around with points and condensors, and all the weaknesses inherient in such things, well, I suppose one would. I can't imagine ever going back to that.

Peter you are right about the system generating more sparks during ignition. MSD stands for Multi Spark Discharge. Up till about 5000 revs there are roughly three sparks and above only three. however, MSD claims that the duration of the 'total' spark is always 20 crankshaft degrees.
Added to the american made blackbox I fitted a 'red' coil from Bosch. Even stronger than the blue coil. Aircraft double insulated coil wires. A new distributor cap and rotor and Bosch super-4 plugs. 4 ground electrodes but no build in resistance like used on modern cars with carbon cables.

William, thanks for this update. I trust you have watched the system work in absolute darkness. No leaks detected? Any chance you could me supply a set of these aircraft cables with correct connectors attached to it? Even the MSD supplied cables leaked to ground.

As for the 4 ground plugs, it reminds me of that other famous italian car brand. They used golden lodge. Brrrrr.....