International Lancia Forums

Just trying to keep the forum alive. No, I'm only kidding.
Got a question to the well informed community, had a (quite short) roadtrip today and a breakdown after a few kilometers.
Most likely the cylinder head gasket blew off (at least that's my guess) because there's water on the oil level plunger, where I believe it shouldn't be there...
If I'm unlucky, it could be a crack in the cylinder block too, but I try to not expect the worse.
Maybe I should mention, I'm talking about my 1,3s 2nd series Fulvia.
Has anyone a special hint, what to consider about this?
I did this job before on a VW Polo and on several motorcycles, but possibly it's a bit different here.

Regards & thanks, Axel

In turn the forum will help to keep your Fulvia alive. No kidding.

I have rebuild plenty of Fulvia engines and never even laid eyes on an other engine. I can't compare with the work on other engines.

In general if one is carefull and precise and follows the specifications in the technical databook there should ne no problem.

Did you check the cylinder block for flatness?

Can you give some more information? Was this the first run after a rebuild? Or was the rebuild done some time ago?

Huib

I myself didn't rebuild the engine, I bought this car 2 years ago and drove it since then without major problems.

[history mode on]
I'm not for that long in the Lancisti scene, but meanwhile I've got the third car. First is this one I'm driving at present (if there wouldn't be the mentioned small problem right now), the second one is at this time completely dismantled waiting for me to rebuild it and a few weeks ago I got a third one, but this time only for donating spare parts.
I've been infected by the virus almost 15 years ago, when I had a garage with a few other people, and there we had a stripped Fulvia body lying around, with which I felt in love.
[/history mode off]

Back to topic:
Checking for flatness seems to be always a good idea, but I would guess it should be more important on the head than the block?
Otherwise I've got no precise questions (yet), only wanted to avoid trouble in advance because of some potentially special Fulvia related issues.

Axel

I mentioned the block just because everybody checks the head and most forget to check the block. It seems Volkswagen with their VR engines did not get any further than Lancia in the sixties. They are probably even worse than the Fulvia engine blocks.

First you have to diagnose the problem. I have a tool containing liquid which changes colour if held over the radiator of an engine with a leaking headgasket. I don't remember the price but I doubt it was over a 100 euro.

I too have built many Fulvia engines. Huib is correct: I have seen warped blocks, but many more uneven heads despite the very superior material from which they were made.

We would need to know more about the circumstances, but the best check is a cylinder leak down tester; apply the compressed air and watch for the bubbles in the radiator. I knew someone who could smell exhaust gas in the radiator (and was always correct) although I have never been able to do it.

Recently I had a leaking gasket on my car (steam from the exhaust), but re-torquing the head bolts cured the problem!

Paul

The diagnosis device, which Huib mentioned, will probably not work in this case, because the engine does not run at all anymore.
A friend told me about that, could it be that it's build by Hazet and based on measuring the carbon monoxide level?

Story began with the rpm falling down when idle, temperature went up a bit (90 degrees following to the meter) and after some more kilometers the engine went down completely. With hindsight I remember to had to refill 2 litres of water the day before, that should have been a clear indication, but afterwards I can be so clever...

The cylinder leak down tester Paul mentioned, did I get it right, you apply the compressed air through the spark plug holes?

Anyway, I definitely follow Huib's advice to check the block.

Axel

It wasn't clear to me from your first posting that the engine had quit all together.

Can you still turn the engine by hand (I put spanner 24 on the nut on the crankshaft pulley)?
If yes, it should run if it has compression, mixture and spark.
If not it looks like you best don't waste any more time and take the engine apart.

As Paul says the quality of the parts is excellent but nobody knows what has happened in the 30 to 40 years of its existence.
The human mind works in strange ways. If a human sees a car looking like new, he thinks it is new. I have bought a special hammer (rubber (very soft rubber) I confess) with which I hit myself on the head three times saying "This car was made to look like new to decëive me, this car was made to look like new to decëive me, this car was made to look like new to decëive me."

The I do some simple arithmetic like:
This car was built in 1967.
It is now 38 years old.
If it was used like a normal car all the time it would have done more than a million kilometers.
It has not even done 200.000km
There are thus significant periods of non-use, neglect and most probably abuse.

Than I turn some statements around:
1. "Today's engine oils are a lot better than those of the sixties and seventies."
This is the wrong way of saying that oil was very very very bad in those days. If you try to sell oil of those days today, you will be put in jail. Sludge was standard then. Included in the price of oil. Thus clean the crankshaft thoroughly (AFTER grinding and polishing, if this is done).

2. "Today we have excellent cooling liquid"
This means that in those days people used water (with calcium, in many places in Europe a lot of calcium) and antifreeze. This means that your radiator is clogged for probably more than 50%. Above mentioned periods of long inactivity further guarantee that is is blocked solid. One of the first things I do is take the radiator to the radiatorshop. They open it. If it is ok, they close it immediately otherwise they fix it by either opening the channels again if possible or otherwise replacing the block. The latter is usually the case and hardly costs more than a 100 euro. I am not going to risk blown head gaskets etc for that money.
At the same time I also replace the hoses and the heater unit to remove as much drab as possible from the system in one stroke before it can redistribute itself. There is another good reason to have the heater work well: if the watertemperature starts to rise unexpectedly you can open the windows and put the heater on fully open. Some people say "I won't use the car in winter, so I don't fix the heater" Very egocentric. These people think of themselves. The car may need the heater on a very hot day!

The leak down tester does involve compressed air which is passed through a special meter which measures the proportion of "leak".

Generally a perfect engine will show perhaps four or five percent leakge on its cylinders.

With a head gasket problem, which may only manifest itself when the engine is warm, you may get good leak figures when cold; however since head gasket failures ae nearly always between the cylinder (s) and the water jacket, you should after a minute or two get the tell-tale bubbles.

Can you remember if there was persistent water vapour from the exhaust even when warm? If there was not, it may be that you had a small radiator leak - very common with the dreadful radiators that were fitted to Fulvias - those nasty brackets at the bottom that cause so much trouble! Of course when water is lost the engine gets a little hotter, so pushing out more water from the overflow. Eventually, if not topped up, the engine might get hot enough to cause the gasket to fail. Another possiblity is that the emergency drain holes in the water pump could be obstructed, and if the pump gland was worn, water could find its way into the timing chest and thus to the oil!

Paul

Hello Alex:

My recommendation is that you start with the simple. Drain the coolant. Any oil? Anything that looks like a chocolate milkshake? Drain the oil. Does coolant come out first? If so, you've got your answer.

If you lost a lot of oil and the engine stopped running and won't turn over, you may have a cylinder full of water. But look for the simple mixing of water and oil first.

When I had a head gasket "fail" it wasn't the head gasket at all. The working surface of the cylinder head had corroded at one point between a water passage and a cylinder. A bit of aluminum welding, resurfacing and the head was as good as new.

The Fulvia engine is a joy to work on. It will make anyone feel like a mechanical expert. You can take the engine out of the car without a hoist, section by section. Remove the radiator first, of course. Getting the sump off is a bit fiddly but entirely doable and everything else is almost unbelievably easy. The timing chain is one long affair and the relevant wheels are all clearly marked. Do keep track of the relative position of the flywheel to retain the balance. Huib is right as always--have the crankshaft cleaned out.

Also one point of the problem can occured by the waterpumpe.The seal inside can be destroid.
And the water can run out on the small hole on the bottemside of the waterpump.
And without water you know what`s happend.

Andreas