International Lancia Forums

We have a thread going on the Dutch Fulvia forum about using a tube with tubeless tires yes or no.

Let me summarize:

Disadvantages of the tube:
1. extra weight
2. extra source of unbalance
3. generation of extra heat due to tube rubbing against tire
4. risk of damaging tube during mounting resulting in "exploding tires"
5. "false air" between tube and tire. It helps reading correct pressure but when it slowly leaks away pressure drops
6. "false air" also causes tube hammering against tire. Resulting in exploding tubes.
7. if a sharp object penetrates, a tube will start to leak. A tubeless tire (mounted without tube) will close the hole for some time.

Wheels for tubeless tires have humps close to the edges to prevent the sides of the tires moving inward at very low pressures. The Fulvia wheels do not have these humps.

The idea is that tubeless will work on Fulvia wheels. No humps does not mean one cannot mount tubeless tires. One may waste a lot of air when initially inflating the tire from zero pressure and one may have a higher risk of loosing air when hitting a sidewalk or something similar.

Mount a tubeless tire on a Fulvia wheel, put it under water, if it does not leak it is ok.

Any ideas, suggestions, additions?

My experience concerns the 6J x 14" Cromodora.

These days, most people use 185/60-14 tyres on these. I have done this for years - of course without tubes and have had no problems at all, despite doing a considerable number of track days.

I have found that the tyres hold pressure perfectly well - my spare is proof of this - it has been fine for years!

Paul

Hello Huib,
My understanding is that when tubeless tyres became available, wheel design was changed to include the humps so that when a tubless tyre is under inflated, air will not escape when cornering. With a tube fitted the air cannot escape when the tyre "bead" is not sealed tightly.
The listed disadvantages of fitting tubes have been the same since they were standard fitment - "tubed" tyres still seal to the rim slightly so there is usually trapped air and the potential for movement between the tube and the inner tyre walls.
In practice, when a car is properly maintained (ie pressures checked regularly) a tubeless tyre will be reliable (as Paul says). The wheel humps are a safety feature for poorly maintained cars (as the vast majority are!) and so a Lancisto would be OK to go tube-less on a Fulvia.

However!!! As in all things it is best to stay with the manufacturer's reccomendations and so if the handbook specifies tyres with tubes then that is what should be used.

I have gone the other way and fitted tubes to my Delta as the alloy wheels on that (and the FPS version of the Beta alloys) corrode around the bead and leak.

My experience of punctures is that a tubeless tyre will deflate slowly so that the handling becomes dangerous, whereas a tubed tyre delates instantly, I notice immediately and thereby there is less danger.

So I guess I am in favour of using tubes.

Best regards, Leo

Hello all,

very interested again by this topic, as I am looking for new tyres to reimplace my good old 175/80/13 Michelin XAS. 30 years old, they can have a final rest now that I finalise my fulvia restoration....
By the way, I am still to find a provider !!, seems that this dimension has disappeared - at least on the french local market, whatever brand and quality (well, except a really nice firestone F560...just good for my renault 4l to go in the vineyards !)

- Paul, do you confirm you mounted and used without particular problem tubeless tyres alone on alloy wheels ? I was pretty convinced it was not really advised, if not dangerous...

- what kind of pressure would you use for normal drive / and for track use ?

- a little different topic : I have heard about these kind of tyres sold for the historical cars for the kind of events like tour de france, and others : homologated, with a nice old design, and very soft material to have tremendous grip : yokohama, avon CR6 and maybe others (to chose in the competition track tyres of pirelli and michelin.
My question : did someone has previously used them, or have any advice if they would suit a standard HF coupé for mix road ("promenade") and track days ?

The tire manufacturers are letting us down indeed.
I have been looking for 165R13 tires to fit 5,5J13 wheels for my S1 coupe rallye 1.3. Only 2 types I found: Matador and Vredestein.

For the 175R13 there are Vredestein, Firestone, Uniroyal and Toyo.

Mind you 175R13 is not exactly the same as 175/80R13. In the modern way the 175R13 would have to be written as 175/82R13.

I don't like at all the low profile 70 or even lower series of tires on a Fulvia. They may be all right for tracks and motorways, but on small bumpy country roads the old 82 series handle best. The 80 series like the Michelin Classic T come close. The Michelin Classic T was so good, that Michelin took it out of production. Merci beaucoup.

Most of the so called "Energy tires" are ^&%(*&.
If anybody knows some good soft rubber and soft sidewall 80 or 82 series radials in the sizes 165x13, 145x14, 155x14 and 165x14, I would be very happy to know.

My only experience on the Fulvia was with the Series 1 steel wheels. I always used tubeless tires because they were easy to source. I only added tubes when a few of the wheels started to develop some corrosion around the holes where the valves stems were installed.

I must confess I can't see the safety advantage to a sudden loss of tire pressure as compared to a gradual one. In the middle of a turn, I'd rather NOT have a sudden loss of tire pressure. And wouldn't the tire be ruined?

My experience on the Flaminia is that the tubes are a royal pain in the #$%*@. It's virtually impossible to get the wheels properly balanced and on cars that aren't driven a lot, the valve stems seem to fail. I'd love to have tubeless tires on those cars if it were possible.

Hi All,

I have read with interest all your comments on tubed versus tubeless tyres on Fulvias. I have a couple of comments to add:

1 Unless a wheel has the humps to retain the bead of the tyre, I would NEVER fit a tubeless tyre without a tube. If the wheel rim is in good condition it will probably seal and retain the air, but the bead is still free to move inwards. This is NOT GOOD. I worked in the tyre industry for many years and have seen the possible results of this. What are the advantages? If you fit good quality tyres and tubes (and fit them correctly!) there will be no problems with balancing or reliability. Tubes should be chalked before fitting to stop them "galling" on the inside of the tyre and inflated slowly in the first instance to allow trapped air to escape. Tube type rims are not designed for the tyre bead to provide the air seal against the rim, and it is a mistake to think that because it seals at rest it will be OK on the road. PLEASE don't do it! I'm not 100% sure, but I think that in the UK it may even contravene Construction and Use Regulations.

2 As far as tyre choice goes, you may have to hunt for them, but I have Michelin MXV 165R14 H on my Fulvia Sport 1.3S and they are quite superb. Firestone produce the F560 in all the sizes we need for Fulvias/Flavias and are much cheaper. 175R14 H for Fulvia HF and 2000s should be available form lots of manufacturers - Dunlop are good & soft - as they are fitted to Mk 3 Golf turbo diesels. I would avoid any profile lower than 80 as the bigger contact patch corrupts the steering feel.

Neil Pye - CarAmore Classics

Neil,

I daresay that you are correct about the regulations (nothing ever surprises me about these) and I accept that theoretically one should certainly use only tubed tyres on wheels that are designed for them. Equally, one should never put tubes inside tyres that are not designed for them (e.g. 185/60-14).

I cannot speak for all such rims, but 20 years' experience has showed that tubeless tyres work perfectly well on the 6J and 5.5J x 14 Cromodoras; I know of innumerable cases that bear this out, and indeed many track-day miles too.

And I must take issue about the effect on steering feel. I accept that the feel will change, but in my experience this is always for the better: your use of the word "corrupt" suggests that the reverse is the case.

At present I am using 205/50-15 at the front and 185/60-14 at the back. This is about to change as I have ordered some wheels and will be using 195/55-15 at the rear. Thus shod, I have done about 12 trackdays, plus three long European trips, over the Alps too, with no problems whatsoever - and indeed many happy memories!

best wishes

Paul

As it happened, I had 4 Stilauto 5,5Jx13 wheels for S1 Fulvia fitted with new tires today. I ordered the Michelin 165/80R13 E3B and asked the tire dealer to mount them without tubes if possible. Since they did not have valves that fitted, they put tubes. I shall try them tomorrow on a rallye 1.3. If ok I will leave them on for a trip to Burgundy over the weekend.

Last weekend I drove an S2 coupe on new Uniroyal R380 165R14 tires over old "smuggler roads" on the border between Holland and Belgium. Quite good.

I tend to agree with Neil and prefer 80 or 82 series tires on a Fulvia. The one I like best for handling and ride is a rallye 1.3 on its original 145R14 Michelin X tires. Unfortunately Michelin no longer makes 145R14 tires. Maybe I should write a letter to the CEO and teach him some French like the meaning of "noblesse oblige".


It is of course all a matter of personal preference. I prefer tires which allow me to drive 12 hours continously per day on country roads in France and Italy at good average speeds but certainly not very high speeds. Driving at higher speeds tire me too much. I would have to sleep and thus arrive a day later.

We know the rule that unsprung weight should be as low as possible. Now, when one lifts a front wheel suspension with hub, disc, calliper, upright etc etc the first thought is that the Lancia engineers did not know about this rule. Well, they did (or did they?). In any case the Flavia and Fulvia have a well dimensioned two stage suspension system.

First stage consists of tire thread / air in tire / rather heavy hubs etc. It takes care of the short bumps. The second stage are the leaf springs and shocks, which take care of the longer bumps. For some reason this works out very well on a Fulvia when using 80 or 82 series tires. Whether this was by design or by accident I don't know. On 80 or 82 series tires it is a true Gran Turismo.

Of course one can mount low profile series tires and adjust the suspension tuning. For track or motorway use it would probably be ok. However, I have so far not found a low profile tire that does a good job for many hours on a row on the roads I prefer.

We all work using our own experience, so Paul is quite right to do what he does. My experience is from before I started working on Lancias, so it colours my judgement on the issue of tubes. Lancia were a little slow to adopt tubeless technology.

As far as steering feel goes, it's very much a matter of taste. I personally think Huib is right - for the nicest steering I would go for a S1 1.3S with 145R14's. I love the light, smooth feel and the compromise between ride comfort, feel and grip just works for me. The use of the word 'corrupt' may have been a little severe!!

Virtually all front-drive cars of the era we're interested in are very compromised as far as unsprung weight goes. Driveshaft joints, wheelbearings, uprights, calipers and discs all weigh considerable amounts. Inboard brakes would have helped and been very easy to engineer on the Fulvia. Look at a Citroen GS or an Alfasud next time you get a chance. I'd still rather drive a Fulvia though!

Regards

Neil