Hi,
I just told Peter he will certainly have brakes problems and I do have some !!
My car has new seals on both master cylinder and servo and it brakes wery well about 10 times and then brakes remain on ; I have to remove the pressure by opening the front "bleeder screw" on the servo (no pressure in the rear one) and the car then runs easily.
Calipers have been cleaned but I kept the seals (there was a little rust in the calipers but in the unused part of the bore)
I have had a message from a french Flavia owner who had the same problem a few weeks ago.
Many thanks for any help.
Best regards
Florent
Flavia brakes
-
Bert Ewalds
Re: Flavia brakes
Florent,
I am pretty sure that the "little rust"in your callipers cause the problem.
I would be even more sure if you confirm to me that you not only changed the seals but changed the brake pads as well
With new pads, the pistons are pushed all the way back , and the unused part
is now being used.
I had exactly the same problem years ago on my then daily car, a Saab 96
So,
Take apart those callipers again, polish out all the corrosion, and if it is too deep
have somebody to bore them out and insert stainless steel rings, or better a specific bronze alloy.
I have stainless steel inserts on my Flaminia brakes , and bronze alloy on my Flavia
Fitting inserts is not cheap(cheaper than new cilinders though), but it ends all problems forever.
I paid 125 Euro's per cilinder for fitting the inserts (remember there are 4 cilinders on your front brake callipers!, so 500 Euro's for the front side)
I am pretty sure that the "little rust"in your callipers cause the problem.
I would be even more sure if you confirm to me that you not only changed the seals but changed the brake pads as well
With new pads, the pistons are pushed all the way back , and the unused part
is now being used.
I had exactly the same problem years ago on my then daily car, a Saab 96
So,
Take apart those callipers again, polish out all the corrosion, and if it is too deep
have somebody to bore them out and insert stainless steel rings, or better a specific bronze alloy.
I have stainless steel inserts on my Flaminia brakes , and bronze alloy on my Flavia
Fitting inserts is not cheap(cheaper than new cilinders though), but it ends all problems forever.
I paid 125 Euro's per cilinder for fitting the inserts (remember there are 4 cilinders on your front brake callipers!, so 500 Euro's for the front side)
-
Huib Geurink
Brakes remain on
When I got my Flaminia some years ago, I had some problems with the brakes. One of them was that they stayed on. I finally solved it by rotating the large diaphragm on the brake servo. I think the pin in the centre not being exactly right caused the problem.
If the brakes hoses are more than 5 years old, better replace them too. After 5 years the rubber may become semi-permeable. This means that it will let moist in which is attracted by the very hygroscopic brake fluid. The water in the brake fluid will cause corrosion in the wheel brake pots and lower the boiling point.
Old hoses do sometimes function as a valve: they let fluid pass easily in the direction of the wheel brake pots, but they limit the return flow. Old hoses may also "balloon": the diameter increases under pressure.
If the brakes hoses are more than 5 years old, better replace them too. After 5 years the rubber may become semi-permeable. This means that it will let moist in which is attracted by the very hygroscopic brake fluid. The water in the brake fluid will cause corrosion in the wheel brake pots and lower the boiling point.
Old hoses do sometimes function as a valve: they let fluid pass easily in the direction of the wheel brake pots, but they limit the return flow. Old hoses may also "balloon": the diameter increases under pressure.
-
Huib Geurink
Wheel brake cylinders
Sometimes the wheel brake cylinders are corroded near the bottom, sometimes near the top. Depends how the moist came in: with the brake fluid or through the cap. If the corrosion is near the bottom, using thin pads may be a temporary solution. If the corrosion is near the top, putting new pads may give the short term solution. It is for this reason that I always keep a set of new pads in any car with the old Dunlop brakes. Just in case, although my brakes are generally in order.
I refuse to have wheel brake cylinders sleeved. So far I have not yet seen any process which ensures the bushes stay in when tested for a week at 150 degr C and 35 bar (a standard brake test). The 2 1/8 brake pots at the front are easy to get new (Ferrari and Jaguar use the same) and cost about the same as having old pots sleeved. The people who sleeve the pots, say that the problems will be over for ever with the stainless steel or bronze bushes. I don't believe in "no problems for ever". I prefer the security of new pots with the certainty that if the old ones lasted 30 years, the new ones will do so too. Most certainly if the brake fluid is refreshed every two years (or sooner) and the hoses are changed every five years.
Remember that hoses have a limited shelf live too.
If I run out of rear brake pots, I may consider having bushes put in as the temperature will not be that high and loosing the rear brakes does generally not lead to disaster. Also the small rear pots have more "flesh" than the large front pots. I would never use stainless steel bushes as their thermal expansion is less than that of the original cast iron.
However, a thought occurred to me the other day. Why not convert the pots to the same design as the later Girling brakes?
Thus:
1. machine a groove in the cylinder for a seal (see if there are any standard seals first)
2. get or make seals
3. remove the pin in the centre
4. machine a simple piston with the shape of a cylinder.
Now the condition of the cylinder walls is no longer important. The condition of the piston is now important, but it can easily be made of stainless steel. If not, it is in any case easy to replace.
C&C Parts in Baarlo, the Netherlands sells modern replacement callipers for the front. They work very well, use modern pads, have modern heat management and are half the price of new Dunlop pots. An option to consider if you just want good brakes and give less priority to originality. I am sure this is as close to "no problems forever" as one can get.
I stick with the Dunlop brakes. I like them and they work very well when in good order. And they allow me to use 13" wheels.
Yesterday I talked to a Flaminia owner, who had one of the short brake lines of his front calliper cut when he run over a length of steel wire. On my Flavia one of the lines at the rear was once cut by a stone, which came between the wheel and the calliper. I usually have some of those small brake lines in the car, next to the set of new pads.
I refuse to have wheel brake cylinders sleeved. So far I have not yet seen any process which ensures the bushes stay in when tested for a week at 150 degr C and 35 bar (a standard brake test). The 2 1/8 brake pots at the front are easy to get new (Ferrari and Jaguar use the same) and cost about the same as having old pots sleeved. The people who sleeve the pots, say that the problems will be over for ever with the stainless steel or bronze bushes. I don't believe in "no problems for ever". I prefer the security of new pots with the certainty that if the old ones lasted 30 years, the new ones will do so too. Most certainly if the brake fluid is refreshed every two years (or sooner) and the hoses are changed every five years.
Remember that hoses have a limited shelf live too.
If I run out of rear brake pots, I may consider having bushes put in as the temperature will not be that high and loosing the rear brakes does generally not lead to disaster. Also the small rear pots have more "flesh" than the large front pots. I would never use stainless steel bushes as their thermal expansion is less than that of the original cast iron.
However, a thought occurred to me the other day. Why not convert the pots to the same design as the later Girling brakes?
Thus:
1. machine a groove in the cylinder for a seal (see if there are any standard seals first)
2. get or make seals
3. remove the pin in the centre
4. machine a simple piston with the shape of a cylinder.
Now the condition of the cylinder walls is no longer important. The condition of the piston is now important, but it can easily be made of stainless steel. If not, it is in any case easy to replace.
C&C Parts in Baarlo, the Netherlands sells modern replacement callipers for the front. They work very well, use modern pads, have modern heat management and are half the price of new Dunlop pots. An option to consider if you just want good brakes and give less priority to originality. I am sure this is as close to "no problems forever" as one can get.
I stick with the Dunlop brakes. I like them and they work very well when in good order. And they allow me to use 13" wheels.
Yesterday I talked to a Flaminia owner, who had one of the short brake lines of his front calliper cut when he run over a length of steel wire. On my Flavia one of the lines at the rear was once cut by a stone, which came between the wheel and the calliper. I usually have some of those small brake lines in the car, next to the set of new pads.
-
Florent Bidet
Re: Flavia brakes
Dear Bert and Huib,
Many thanks for your answers and advices.
I kept the pads the car was equiped with when I bought it and I thought that corrosion would'nt be a problem as it must be situated behind the position of the pistons, you both seem to be sure that it is the source of my problems, so in a first time, I will try to use thin pads as a temporary solution ; if it works, I will have time to find new calipers or have mine sleeved.
I will let you know if the problem is solved with old pads (next week-end work !)
Best regards
Florent
Many thanks for your answers and advices.
I kept the pads the car was equiped with when I bought it and I thought that corrosion would'nt be a problem as it must be situated behind the position of the pistons, you both seem to be sure that it is the source of my problems, so in a first time, I will try to use thin pads as a temporary solution ; if it works, I will have time to find new calipers or have mine sleeved.
I will let you know if the problem is solved with old pads (next week-end work !)
Best regards
Florent
-
Florent Bidet
Re: Flavia brakes
Dear Bert and Huib,
I equiped my car with old brake pads this week-end and I do not have any problems with them, no more need to stop every ten brake actions to remove pressure from the system. You were right, the corrosion in my calipers is the cause of my problem (the pads the car was equiped with were nearly new), and I now have to find a solution as thin pads can only be a temporary one.
Many many thanks for your answers, I could'nt believe the problem was situated in the calipers and I was about to open my servo one more time when you gave me your advices.
Florent
I equiped my car with old brake pads this week-end and I do not have any problems with them, no more need to stop every ten brake actions to remove pressure from the system. You were right, the corrosion in my calipers is the cause of my problem (the pads the car was equiped with were nearly new), and I now have to find a solution as thin pads can only be a temporary one.
Many many thanks for your answers, I could'nt believe the problem was situated in the calipers and I was about to open my servo one more time when you gave me your advices.
Florent
-
Peter Offer
Re: Wheel brake cylinders
Huib,
Your advice on brakes is superb. Like Florent, I have a Flavia Vignale (except RHD) and I too have to work on brakes (but much more - it was unused for 9 years).
I am very interested in the alternative brake calipers from C&C Parts in Baarlo. Do you know which ones? Also, do you have their telephone number (I tried the internet, but only got blind links).
Once again, thank you for the advice - there are some real nice people associated with Lancias
)
I am documenting my restoration to pass on tips and experiences to others.
Best regards
Peter
(the email address belongs to my wife - hence the name switch).
Your advice on brakes is superb. Like Florent, I have a Flavia Vignale (except RHD) and I too have to work on brakes (but much more - it was unused for 9 years).
I am very interested in the alternative brake calipers from C&C Parts in Baarlo. Do you know which ones? Also, do you have their telephone number (I tried the internet, but only got blind links).
Once again, thank you for the advice - there are some real nice people associated with Lancias
)I am documenting my restoration to pass on tips and experiences to others.
Best regards
Peter
(the email address belongs to my wife - hence the name switch).
-
Huib Geurink
Tel # of C&C Parts
The address and tel nr of C&C Parts is
C&C Parts
De Voort 5a
5991 DC Baarlo
The Netherlands
Tel.: +31.77.4772454
Fax: +31.77.4771676
The gentleman you want to talk to is Wiel Claessen.
Wiel is pronounced as "wheel" (very appropriate)
Baarlo is near Venlo, which is in the east of the Netherlands, close to the German border.
C&C Parts
De Voort 5a
5991 DC Baarlo
The Netherlands
Tel.: +31.77.4772454
Fax: +31.77.4771676
The gentleman you want to talk to is Wiel Claessen.
Wiel is pronounced as "wheel" (very appropriate)
Baarlo is near Venlo, which is in the east of the Netherlands, close to the German border.
-
Peter Offer
Re: Tel # of C&C Parts
Huib,
many thanks for the information. I shall give them a call in the next few days.
best Regards Peter
p.s. like the humour!
P
many thanks for the information. I shall give them a call in the next few days.
best Regards Peter
p.s. like the humour!
P
-
Peter Offer
Re: Wheel brake cylinders
Huib,
I contacted C&C parts and spoke to them about the calipers. They are very well priced (about 800 NLG for a complete kit). Interestingly, they require 6mm taken off the radius of the disks. This probably explains why there are not more kits available.
I am finding out if my disks need to come off anyway, before I purchase.
Best Regards
Peter
I contacted C&C parts and spoke to them about the calipers. They are very well priced (about 800 NLG for a complete kit). Interestingly, they require 6mm taken off the radius of the disks. This probably explains why there are not more kits available.
I am finding out if my disks need to come off anyway, before I purchase.
Best Regards
Peter