hello all!
After some slightly reckless evening auction time I now own a 1967 Fulvia rallye which should be arriving with me mid of this month.
It has been restored previously but first thing is to go over it and give it a good service and then there are a few things I'd like to do with it, basically the idea is to make it a fast(ish...) road toy, no track work.
But first, is it possible to put the HF style 13" wheels on? 7x13's, I've seen some things about interference with arches but then other comments saying you just have to have right size tyres..? could anyone confirm?
the suspension looks wrong to me, certainly at the back where it is sitting too high, is it possible to lower or is it just a case of setting up the leafs? I'll probably also refresh the shocks so any suggestions welcome.
Exhaust! I can only really see the gr4 one for sale for something that will be a bit more sporty...any other options?
It also appears to have no seatbelts so I should probably rectify that..
Other things I'd like to do in time...
- Webers or Dellorto carbs although not with open trumpets as that seems like an all round terrible idea
- change cams, idea is to get to somewhere close to HF output
- oil cooler, is this necessary or really just for comp use?
- probably a prototipo wheel, or something a bit smaller than the standard
sure this list will be added to some anything else shout up!
new owner - fulvia s1
Re: new owner - fulvia s1
Hi tag89.
Congratulations. Very good car. I own a 1967 Rallye 1.3 myself. I like your idea's. Very recognizable. Mine were similar when I changed from a Lancia Thema Turbo 16V to a Fulvia in 1996. I have driven Fulvia's for over 30 years (also counting the sixties and seventies) and learned a lot. Let me share some. You have of course every right to follow your own path but nevertheless.
That Fulvia is extremely fast, safe, reliable and comfortable as a fast road car when in its original condition. It is not a motorway tiger and it will never be. Do it right and you have a car which is very hard to beat on the white and yellow roads. Try to appreciate the balance of this pinnacle of Italian automotive engineering. Bring it back to original specifications, drive it some years then think again if you want to spend money to ruin something which is beyond perfection.
Restored previously can mean everything. The word restored is not protected. Usually the body is restored. Technical things as suspension, steering, engine, gearbox is not touched. Body work and technical work requires different hands and eyes. In practice these are different persons. Many of the cars we get in the workshop have been "restored" and just need some technical work. After 50 years of negligence it is more than a good service. Much more. Very much more.
Apart from the tyres interfering with arches, you ruin the brilliant driving character of the Fulvia when you go to 7x13"wheels. The ET value changes which makes the car unstable. Google on scrub radius. And the forces on wheel bearings, suspension ball joints, track rod ends etc are much greater. You may find a reduction of life time from 100.000 km to 500 km on some parts.
Note that 1.6HF and 1600HF did have shorter wishbones at the top and longer at the bottom to bring scrub radius within an acceptable range. Note that the Zagato 1600 did not have the special wishbones. It was always delivered on standard wheels with the 48mm ET value.
The engine has a short crankshaft with only three main bearings. 4 in line engines have 5 main bearings. The Fulvia crankshaft although made from the best possible crankshaft steel flexes a lot when power is increased beyond the standard Fulvia and when the ignition is advanced more than the listed 8 degrees. Note that the HF's have nitrated crankshafts which are much stiffer and flex less. Even then the fixed advance is 10 degrees (versus 8 degrees for the not nitrated crankshafts).
The rear springs may be fixed wrongly as you say. Often the rear anti roll bar is mounted the wrong way. Or maybe the front is too low. The spring may be tired or the rubber buffer between spring and wishbone has suffered too much.
If rubbers have worn more than you would expect, there is vibration. Vibration causes metal fatigue and rubbers to go soft.
Leaf springs are very expensive compared to coil springs which most car manufacturers use. However by carefully choosing the length of the intermediate leafs one can create an optimum characteristic for the car. The Fulvia springs are high tech. If they lost their vitality they have to be brought back into the original elliptical shape. If springs (and rubbers) are used within their elasticity range they don't wear. There are bump stops to limit the travel of the springs. However the work is mostly done by the tips of the leafs. If you have the wrong (or bad) shocks and / or too much pressure in the tyres the tips suffer too much and lose their curvature. The only good shock for the Fulvia (and Flavia) is a De Carbon type shock absorber. It is gas filled with high pressure. Hydraulic ones are no good. They react too late. Also low pressure gas types are no good. The only good ones are the high pressure single tube De Carbon types. They act immediately and progressively. This gives max road holding as well as maximum comfort as well as maximum protection of the tips of the leafs of the spring.
The spring function is two stage. The first stage is the air spring from the tires. The second stage is the leaf spring with its shock absorber. Don't fight the system. Put tires which can be run at low pressure like 1.8 bar or even 1.7. Don't use any /80 or /70 or any /xx tires. Now we have a bit of a problem with the Rally 1.3. The required tire size is 145R14. The Pirelli Cinturato reproduces this size. However, Pirelli and Lancia never was a good marriage. I would not mount them. Camac makes a 145R14. Not bad. I have those on my coupé. The ideal type and make would be Michelin X. They make a 155R14 X. If I need new tyres I will sin against my own rules and put the 155R14 X. In the dark. With nobody looking.
For the exhaust don't go for anything fancy like stainless steel or gr4. Just the narrow 1st series mild steel exhaust. If you would do any rallying you might as well enjoy the whole fun. If you arrive at the start Porsche owners and the like will look full of pity at your narrow tires and small exhaust but belief me after the first curve they will be way behind you. If not, take driving lessons.
The Solex carbs are the best performing for the Fulvia. The difficulty today is to have them overhauled properly. Lancia was an expensive car. Money no object. In the UK the Rallye 1.3 costed more than a Jaguar E-type. The factory made the right choices.
The steering wheel is brilliant. You will find that out when you start driving the car on long distances or in own.
The Rally 1.3 has the 818.100 camshaft. It was first used on the Fulvia berlina 2C. I have both a 2C and a Rally 1.3. No way I would change the camshaft for anything else. It gives lots of torque at 2000 rpm. I would not trade that for a few HP more at 6000 rpm. I never drive 170 km/h but I do drive in town every day.
Oil cooler is not necessary with today's high quality oils. Might be different if you want to cross Death Valley or the Organ Pipe desert during day time.
Tampering the springs is a job not many understand. I live in Breda, the Netherlands. I have not found someone who can do it within 1000 km. I have to drive 1100 km and cross several countries. The advantage is I can drink with my friends in Piazza San Carlo in Torino and in Piazza Maggiore in Mondovi.
Precision is the magic word if you want to enjoy your Fulvietta.
Congratulations. Very good car. I own a 1967 Rallye 1.3 myself. I like your idea's. Very recognizable. Mine were similar when I changed from a Lancia Thema Turbo 16V to a Fulvia in 1996. I have driven Fulvia's for over 30 years (also counting the sixties and seventies) and learned a lot. Let me share some. You have of course every right to follow your own path but nevertheless.
That Fulvia is extremely fast, safe, reliable and comfortable as a fast road car when in its original condition. It is not a motorway tiger and it will never be. Do it right and you have a car which is very hard to beat on the white and yellow roads. Try to appreciate the balance of this pinnacle of Italian automotive engineering. Bring it back to original specifications, drive it some years then think again if you want to spend money to ruin something which is beyond perfection.
Restored previously can mean everything. The word restored is not protected. Usually the body is restored. Technical things as suspension, steering, engine, gearbox is not touched. Body work and technical work requires different hands and eyes. In practice these are different persons. Many of the cars we get in the workshop have been "restored" and just need some technical work. After 50 years of negligence it is more than a good service. Much more. Very much more.
Apart from the tyres interfering with arches, you ruin the brilliant driving character of the Fulvia when you go to 7x13"wheels. The ET value changes which makes the car unstable. Google on scrub radius. And the forces on wheel bearings, suspension ball joints, track rod ends etc are much greater. You may find a reduction of life time from 100.000 km to 500 km on some parts.
Note that 1.6HF and 1600HF did have shorter wishbones at the top and longer at the bottom to bring scrub radius within an acceptable range. Note that the Zagato 1600 did not have the special wishbones. It was always delivered on standard wheels with the 48mm ET value.
The engine has a short crankshaft with only three main bearings. 4 in line engines have 5 main bearings. The Fulvia crankshaft although made from the best possible crankshaft steel flexes a lot when power is increased beyond the standard Fulvia and when the ignition is advanced more than the listed 8 degrees. Note that the HF's have nitrated crankshafts which are much stiffer and flex less. Even then the fixed advance is 10 degrees (versus 8 degrees for the not nitrated crankshafts).
The rear springs may be fixed wrongly as you say. Often the rear anti roll bar is mounted the wrong way. Or maybe the front is too low. The spring may be tired or the rubber buffer between spring and wishbone has suffered too much.
If rubbers have worn more than you would expect, there is vibration. Vibration causes metal fatigue and rubbers to go soft.
Leaf springs are very expensive compared to coil springs which most car manufacturers use. However by carefully choosing the length of the intermediate leafs one can create an optimum characteristic for the car. The Fulvia springs are high tech. If they lost their vitality they have to be brought back into the original elliptical shape. If springs (and rubbers) are used within their elasticity range they don't wear. There are bump stops to limit the travel of the springs. However the work is mostly done by the tips of the leafs. If you have the wrong (or bad) shocks and / or too much pressure in the tyres the tips suffer too much and lose their curvature. The only good shock for the Fulvia (and Flavia) is a De Carbon type shock absorber. It is gas filled with high pressure. Hydraulic ones are no good. They react too late. Also low pressure gas types are no good. The only good ones are the high pressure single tube De Carbon types. They act immediately and progressively. This gives max road holding as well as maximum comfort as well as maximum protection of the tips of the leafs of the spring.
The spring function is two stage. The first stage is the air spring from the tires. The second stage is the leaf spring with its shock absorber. Don't fight the system. Put tires which can be run at low pressure like 1.8 bar or even 1.7. Don't use any /80 or /70 or any /xx tires. Now we have a bit of a problem with the Rally 1.3. The required tire size is 145R14. The Pirelli Cinturato reproduces this size. However, Pirelli and Lancia never was a good marriage. I would not mount them. Camac makes a 145R14. Not bad. I have those on my coupé. The ideal type and make would be Michelin X. They make a 155R14 X. If I need new tyres I will sin against my own rules and put the 155R14 X. In the dark. With nobody looking.
For the exhaust don't go for anything fancy like stainless steel or gr4. Just the narrow 1st series mild steel exhaust. If you would do any rallying you might as well enjoy the whole fun. If you arrive at the start Porsche owners and the like will look full of pity at your narrow tires and small exhaust but belief me after the first curve they will be way behind you. If not, take driving lessons.
The Solex carbs are the best performing for the Fulvia. The difficulty today is to have them overhauled properly. Lancia was an expensive car. Money no object. In the UK the Rallye 1.3 costed more than a Jaguar E-type. The factory made the right choices.
The steering wheel is brilliant. You will find that out when you start driving the car on long distances or in own.
The Rally 1.3 has the 818.100 camshaft. It was first used on the Fulvia berlina 2C. I have both a 2C and a Rally 1.3. No way I would change the camshaft for anything else. It gives lots of torque at 2000 rpm. I would not trade that for a few HP more at 6000 rpm. I never drive 170 km/h but I do drive in town every day.
Oil cooler is not necessary with today's high quality oils. Might be different if you want to cross Death Valley or the Organ Pipe desert during day time.
Tampering the springs is a job not many understand. I live in Breda, the Netherlands. I have not found someone who can do it within 1000 km. I have to drive 1100 km and cross several countries. The advantage is I can drink with my friends in Piazza San Carlo in Torino and in Piazza Maggiore in Mondovi.
Precision is the magic word if you want to enjoy your Fulvietta.
Re: new owner - fulvia s1
Ciao Huib!
100% with your opinion...
A presto.
Giovanni
100% with your opinion...
A presto.
Giovanni
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- just befor drinking ;-)
Re: new owner - fulvia s1
Hey, Giovanni. That is me sitting on bench. Nice picture. Piazza Maggiore, Mondovì, Piemonte. Thanks.
Re: new owner - fulvia s1
Ready for a trip in the country side along the border between Netherlands and Belgium. Visit a small pretty church. Lunch at the agriturismo.
The young ladies always enjoy as they don't have to belt up. Of course I limit myself to the 60 km roads. The 2C is from 1965, 45.000 km, original paint. I changed bad plastic and rubber parts. As close to new as possible. A Lancia is always a pleasure to drive. At any speed. At 20 km/h or 50 or 60. Every mile with a smile. Sometimes the girls take a friend. Touring the country side in a Fulvia with 4 giggling young ladies on the back seat. How much closer to heaven can I get?
Centuries ago I always drove fast to impress the ladies. I have changed. Today I drive as slowly as possible so can enjoy the company and the Fulvia longer.
Re: new owner - fulvia s1
wow, a very comprehensive response! thanks Huib
the restoration is obviosuly a big unknown, looking forward to getting my hands on it and actually getting a few htings off to see what state it is in, it is an italian car so a dryer climate at least.
I spoke to Omicron about the wheels, I think I'll stick with the steels for now, see how I like it and then decide in future.
with regards to the rear springs I'm sure something isn't quite right, it is nose down, noticeable higher in the back and unlike any other I have seen, hopefully just a setup issue, if it requires new leafs then it will have to be done, will also take a look at the de carbon shcoks, thanks
my concern about steering wheel is leg space, I am not an italian build
And i'm not a million miles from Breda, recently moved to NL and I'm now based in The Hague
the restoration is obviosuly a big unknown, looking forward to getting my hands on it and actually getting a few htings off to see what state it is in, it is an italian car so a dryer climate at least.
I spoke to Omicron about the wheels, I think I'll stick with the steels for now, see how I like it and then decide in future.
with regards to the rear springs I'm sure something isn't quite right, it is nose down, noticeable higher in the back and unlike any other I have seen, hopefully just a setup issue, if it requires new leafs then it will have to be done, will also take a look at the de carbon shcoks, thanks
my concern about steering wheel is leg space, I am not an italian build
And i'm not a million miles from Breda, recently moved to NL and I'm now based in The Hague
Re: new owner - fulvia s1
You are welcome.
I am sitting in the Hague right now reading your post and replying. I suggest you come to the shop in Breda for a free inspection.
The high tail is usually wrong mounting of the rear anti roll bar. It has 90 degree bends on both sides. The ends should be horizontal and point to the rear. It is however also possible to mount them pointing down. This causes the way too high tail.
I am sitting in the Hague right now reading your post and replying. I suggest you come to the shop in Breda for a free inspection.
The high tail is usually wrong mounting of the rear anti roll bar. It has 90 degree bends on both sides. The ends should be horizontal and point to the rear. It is however also possible to mount them pointing down. This causes the way too high tail.
Re: new owner - fulvia s1
well the ARB certainly isn't sitting horizontal
Will definitely get down to Breda thanks! just need to get through all the registration etc first
Will definitely get down to Breda thanks! just need to get through all the registration etc first
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Re: new owner - fulvia s1
There is something wrong. I can't really orient myself on your pic.
The front is too low.
The front is too low.
Re: new owner - fulvia s1
definitely something making it sit wrong isn't there!
Plenty of winter time to get it sorted though.
Plenty of winter time to get it sorted though.