It doesn't get any better if you repeat that the engine has only run 18000 km since the overhaul.
Sorry for that.
Because the question remains what was done in the first place.
There is also a lot of lying. Have you seen an account of what was done? New bearings, oil pump parts, pistons or just piston rings, etc.?
Whatever it is, it won't help you with the current problem.
Inspecting bearings without removing engine
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
I have no idea what was done to the engine when it was overhauled because it was done in Italy before it was imported to the UK. The previous owner had no paperwork on the overhaul just a vague notion that the odometer was zeroed at that time.
I took the broken shell to a Fulvia engine specialist yesterday and he certainly has never seen anything like it in 30 + years. What he did say was it did NOT look like oil starvation as the centre of the shell had not worn down to the bronze. He reckoned the damage occurred because the shell moved sideways in the journal because the tangs were missing. But how did the tangs break??? They are not in the sump so they must have been picked up by the magnetic plug during an oil change and either not noticed or an owner kept quiet. Perhaps that was the reason the PO put the car into auction.
He said there are two options:
1/ Strip and rebuild. Many £ thousands
2/ Measure the journal and if within limits polish with string and WD40 and put a new shell in. After 250 miles drop the sump again and inspect.
If shell damaged then 1/ above has to be done. If shell OK repeat inspection after another 1,000 miles, then 2,000 etc etc. He reckons it is highly unlikely that any catastrophic damage will occur in 250 miles as it lasted thousands with a broken shell.
I know 2/above will not appeal to the purists amongst the experts out there but am tempted with that option as I have plenty of time on my hands and have been enjoying the State Pension for 10 years. Now I know how to drop the sump I reckon an inspection would only take me a couple of hours. If a full strip down does become necessary I have bought a little time to save up my pension money to pay for the overhaul, and the wife's new kitchen will have to go on hold yet again. If option 2/does work it will validate my 80% certainty the the shell was wrongly installed at overhaul (ie tang to tang and not tang to flat) that allowed the shell to spin at high rpm and break off the tangs.
I know good Fulvia crankshafts can be difficult to source but I have found what appears to be a good one from a reliable seller. One thing. My engine is a -303 from the 1.3S; is the crank from the -302 the same?? It would be a bit like an insurance policy that I would not like to claim on.
I took the broken shell to a Fulvia engine specialist yesterday and he certainly has never seen anything like it in 30 + years. What he did say was it did NOT look like oil starvation as the centre of the shell had not worn down to the bronze. He reckoned the damage occurred because the shell moved sideways in the journal because the tangs were missing. But how did the tangs break??? They are not in the sump so they must have been picked up by the magnetic plug during an oil change and either not noticed or an owner kept quiet. Perhaps that was the reason the PO put the car into auction.
He said there are two options:
1/ Strip and rebuild. Many £ thousands
2/ Measure the journal and if within limits polish with string and WD40 and put a new shell in. After 250 miles drop the sump again and inspect.
If shell damaged then 1/ above has to be done. If shell OK repeat inspection after another 1,000 miles, then 2,000 etc etc. He reckons it is highly unlikely that any catastrophic damage will occur in 250 miles as it lasted thousands with a broken shell.
I know 2/above will not appeal to the purists amongst the experts out there but am tempted with that option as I have plenty of time on my hands and have been enjoying the State Pension for 10 years. Now I know how to drop the sump I reckon an inspection would only take me a couple of hours. If a full strip down does become necessary I have bought a little time to save up my pension money to pay for the overhaul, and the wife's new kitchen will have to go on hold yet again. If option 2/does work it will validate my 80% certainty the the shell was wrongly installed at overhaul (ie tang to tang and not tang to flat) that allowed the shell to spin at high rpm and break off the tangs.
I know good Fulvia crankshafts can be difficult to source but I have found what appears to be a good one from a reliable seller. One thing. My engine is a -303 from the 1.3S; is the crank from the -302 the same?? It would be a bit like an insurance policy that I would not like to claim on.
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
Wife, new kitchen, Fulvia engine. Familiar.
Purists? Not necessarily. The miles you do every month is different from doing 50 miles per year with the local old timer club. And there is a difference between thinking what may have caused it and knowing what did cause it.
The tangs may be inside the chamber in the journal.
Many Italians have a nephew who works at Ferrari and who has revisonata the engine which means looked at the engine.
Maybe there are bad quality imitation pistons inside. Detonation around the edges of the piston?
Maybe the wrong bolts were put at the wrong places.
Maybe the "hidden" bolt fastening the cylinder block to the crank case was forgotten or not properly torqued.
Maybe none of the foot bolts was torqued properly as a special tool is needed.
Do you run with or without air filter? A particle may have been between piston and head.
I don't really understand when you say not tang to tang but tang to flat. It is near impossible to mount it wrongly. One would have to put the cap on the wrong way around. Doesn't fit.
Earlier this year we did an engine for a customer. He had bought the Fulvietta recently with the engine restored just before the sale. Engine did not run well. We took it apart and found foot and head gaskets did not have correct thickness and camshafts were not timed correctly. Fortunately we were in time. We could rebuild with the same parts. Just clean the crankshaft inside. Hardly anybody does that but it is necessary.
The 302 and 303 crankshafts are identical. There is a difference between S1 and 2 crankshafts. The hole for the pilot bearing is different.
If you do the overhaul yourself I don't see how it could be thousands of pounds if you have all the time. You indicate that is the case.
If I remember correctly you said that you advanced the ignition to add some power. On a good engine this is not necessary. In fact it iś not a good idea at all. The crankshaft has only 3 main bearings. It is flexing a lot more than 4 in line engines with 5 main bearings. If the crankshaft is nitrated you can go to 10 degrees fixed advance. If the crankshaft is not nitrated the maximum is 8 degrees.
If you decide to do the overhaul yourself don't start to take out the bolts without a plan. It is important to put back the right bolt at the right place with the right torque in the right sequence. Checking which bolt comes from where is a good indication of the workmanship of the person who overhauled the engine.
Purists? Not necessarily. The miles you do every month is different from doing 50 miles per year with the local old timer club. And there is a difference between thinking what may have caused it and knowing what did cause it.
The tangs may be inside the chamber in the journal.
Many Italians have a nephew who works at Ferrari and who has revisonata the engine which means looked at the engine.
Maybe there are bad quality imitation pistons inside. Detonation around the edges of the piston?
Maybe the wrong bolts were put at the wrong places.
Maybe the "hidden" bolt fastening the cylinder block to the crank case was forgotten or not properly torqued.
Maybe none of the foot bolts was torqued properly as a special tool is needed.
Do you run with or without air filter? A particle may have been between piston and head.
I don't really understand when you say not tang to tang but tang to flat. It is near impossible to mount it wrongly. One would have to put the cap on the wrong way around. Doesn't fit.
Earlier this year we did an engine for a customer. He had bought the Fulvietta recently with the engine restored just before the sale. Engine did not run well. We took it apart and found foot and head gaskets did not have correct thickness and camshafts were not timed correctly. Fortunately we were in time. We could rebuild with the same parts. Just clean the crankshaft inside. Hardly anybody does that but it is necessary.
The 302 and 303 crankshafts are identical. There is a difference between S1 and 2 crankshafts. The hole for the pilot bearing is different.
If you do the overhaul yourself I don't see how it could be thousands of pounds if you have all the time. You indicate that is the case.
If I remember correctly you said that you advanced the ignition to add some power. On a good engine this is not necessary. In fact it iś not a good idea at all. The crankshaft has only 3 main bearings. It is flexing a lot more than 4 in line engines with 5 main bearings. If the crankshaft is nitrated you can go to 10 degrees fixed advance. If the crankshaft is not nitrated the maximum is 8 degrees.
If you decide to do the overhaul yourself don't start to take out the bolts without a plan. It is important to put back the right bolt at the right place with the right torque in the right sequence. Checking which bolt comes from where is a good indication of the workmanship of the person who overhauled the engine.
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
"Tang to Tang". What I mean is that the shells were put in the caps correctly but the big end cap is supposed to be bolted to the con rod ge with the tang side of one shell mated against the flat edge of the opposite shell. If the bottom cap is rotated 180 then the two tang edges are mated to together. I am pretty sure that is how this bearing was assembled. Does it matter???
I would love to do the overhaul myself but I do not have the space or equipment to remove the engine, nor the space to work on the engine in relative comfort. My ideal scenario would be to find a friendly over-hauler to allow me to use his facilities. I would obviously pay him for the space and advise but I would save a huge amount of money on the donkey work. If anyone reading this post knows anyone who can help I would be really grateful. How about you Huib? I have good friends in Holland so I could have an autumn holiday in Holland??
I know about the different pilot bearings between S1 and S2. I heard it maybe possible to change/modify? Correct?
I would love to do the overhaul myself but I do not have the space or equipment to remove the engine, nor the space to work on the engine in relative comfort. My ideal scenario would be to find a friendly over-hauler to allow me to use his facilities. I would obviously pay him for the space and advise but I would save a huge amount of money on the donkey work. If anyone reading this post knows anyone who can help I would be really grateful. How about you Huib? I have good friends in Holland so I could have an autumn holiday in Holland??
I know about the different pilot bearings between S1 and S2. I heard it maybe possible to change/modify? Correct?
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
Do your job in our workshop? That sounds like a great idea!
I am planning some dinner dates with friends in the Turin and Mondovi area later this month. Would you want to go too?
If you want to have the crankshaft nitrated and balanced, polished conrods, diamond coated pistons there will be a delay between disassembly and assembly. We need to prepare boxes to transport and / or store parts.
Of course we do some walking, crawling and sitting bone walking backwards together.
I am planning some dinner dates with friends in the Turin and Mondovi area later this month. Would you want to go too?
If you want to have the crankshaft nitrated and balanced, polished conrods, diamond coated pistons there will be a delay between disassembly and assembly. We need to prepare boxes to transport and / or store parts.
Of course we do some walking, crawling and sitting bone walking backwards together.
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
Huib,
Your offer is the first real positive offer I have had regarding my problem. Thank you. I have learned a lot from the Forum and also from asking the experts here. As you know one of the problems there may be with the engine is the conrod may be compromised/deformed, so best if they all come out for checking and balancing.
Correct me if I am wrong but is the offer that I bring the car to you. We remove the engine and disassemble it. Send the crank and conrods away for special treatment, then may be a month later put it all back together??
I have a very good friend (with some lovely cars) who lives near Bergen-Op-Zoom so I can stay with him for a few days and then catch Ryan Air back home from Eindhoven.
With a new shell in #1 I am convinced it will make it to you.
Cheers
Simon
Your offer is the first real positive offer I have had regarding my problem. Thank you. I have learned a lot from the Forum and also from asking the experts here. As you know one of the problems there may be with the engine is the conrod may be compromised/deformed, so best if they all come out for checking and balancing.
Correct me if I am wrong but is the offer that I bring the car to you. We remove the engine and disassemble it. Send the crank and conrods away for special treatment, then may be a month later put it all back together??
I have a very good friend (with some lovely cars) who lives near Bergen-Op-Zoom so I can stay with him for a few days and then catch Ryan Air back home from Eindhoven.
With a new shell in #1 I am convinced it will make it to you.
Cheers
Simon
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
Exactly. The conrod is compromised. If the cap was really mounted the wrong way, everything else is suspect too. Bad workmanship. One could decide to take the engine apart as quickly as possible. However, questions may arise later. How was the timing ? Were all bolts in the correct place? Thickness of gaskets? Etc. Best is to take the engine apart carefully and note everything. Like I see people doing at a crime scene in the movies. When the head is off, check if no pistons comes higher than the cylinder block.
Depending on circumstances one could decide to leave the pistons in the cylinder block. In your case they have to come out. You want to check conrod 1 thus the others too. That usually means at least honing and new piston rings. We are stupid enough to just follow the book. If ovality over the limit, it means next oversize. If after honing the cylinder too big, also next oversize. We found the book between the bushes on a mountain, so it is holy.
The cast non original pistons on the market vary from bad to almost acceptable. We can adept them or have good ones made. These come with diamond coating.
When we have the conrods checked at my favourite place, we can also have them polished at very little extra money. The machine used to polish Munari's conrods is still there.
So we go step by step. Remember that no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.
Series 1 clutches are brilliant but they need precise adjusting by a specialist who has the tools. We have a good one in Eindhoven.
The clutch housing will be black from oil leakage. Do you want to just put the engine in again? Or take the gearbox out and replace the seal? And once it is on the table also the bushes at the top?
What if subframe parts or other parts are broken? How are the rubbers? If old you will struggle to get the engine in at 45 degrees. If you put new rubbers it will slide in exactly right with no effort. However the market for new rubbers is a bit of wild west.
Depending on circumstances one could decide to leave the pistons in the cylinder block. In your case they have to come out. You want to check conrod 1 thus the others too. That usually means at least honing and new piston rings. We are stupid enough to just follow the book. If ovality over the limit, it means next oversize. If after honing the cylinder too big, also next oversize. We found the book between the bushes on a mountain, so it is holy.
The cast non original pistons on the market vary from bad to almost acceptable. We can adept them or have good ones made. These come with diamond coating.
When we have the conrods checked at my favourite place, we can also have them polished at very little extra money. The machine used to polish Munari's conrods is still there.
So we go step by step. Remember that no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.
Series 1 clutches are brilliant but they need precise adjusting by a specialist who has the tools. We have a good one in Eindhoven.
The clutch housing will be black from oil leakage. Do you want to just put the engine in again? Or take the gearbox out and replace the seal? And once it is on the table also the bushes at the top?
What if subframe parts or other parts are broken? How are the rubbers? If old you will struggle to get the engine in at 45 degrees. If you put new rubbers it will slide in exactly right with no effort. However the market for new rubbers is a bit of wild west.
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
I like that plan. With a bit of luck my wife may get 1/2 a kitchen! My argument is that the present kitchen works well but my engine works badly.
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lancia7550
- Posts: 74
- Joined: 10 Nov 2012, 22:26
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
Just an update, as I have started this thread. I inspected the bearings in situ (wasn't too hard) and they have some scoring and wear visible, but not terrible. The crank has no visible wear.
Decided though to remove the engine (whole subframe in fact) and have the bearings replaced. The engine rebuilder inspected the cylinder bores and pistons and they are basically in good condition.
So we decided to polish the crank (and clean the oil galeries), replace the big-end and main bearings, lightly hone the block to retain the current pistons and replace the piston rings. While at it he will also check the head surface, valves and seats for seal and the cams, rocker shafts and valve guides for tolererances. I have sent him the pages from the S1 workshop manual for tolerances.
I also got a full gasket set and oil seals, timing chain and tensioner.
So should hopefully be good for another 54 years at the type of mileage I'm putting on it :D
Decided though to remove the engine (whole subframe in fact) and have the bearings replaced. The engine rebuilder inspected the cylinder bores and pistons and they are basically in good condition.
So we decided to polish the crank (and clean the oil galeries), replace the big-end and main bearings, lightly hone the block to retain the current pistons and replace the piston rings. While at it he will also check the head surface, valves and seats for seal and the cams, rocker shafts and valve guides for tolererances. I have sent him the pages from the S1 workshop manual for tolerances.
I also got a full gasket set and oil seals, timing chain and tensioner.
So should hopefully be good for another 54 years at the type of mileage I'm putting on it :D
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lancia7550
- Posts: 74
- Joined: 10 Nov 2012, 22:26
Re: Inspecting bearings without removing engine
Hi everyone,
I am in the home stretch with the engine rebuild. The engine builder phoned me today with a question though before he can finish the reassembly:
The block (Series 1 1.3S) was bored to 77.8mm (0.8mm oversize) but the Spesso head gasket I have is very close to the bore size. Even though the pistons don't protrude higher than the block face, he is just worried when the gasket compresses that it might clip the gasket.
Is this an something to be concerned about, and if it is, are there head gaskets avalaible for oversize engines? I don't think I've ever come across different ones when buying parts.
Pictures attached.
Thanks!
I am in the home stretch with the engine rebuild. The engine builder phoned me today with a question though before he can finish the reassembly:
The block (Series 1 1.3S) was bored to 77.8mm (0.8mm oversize) but the Spesso head gasket I have is very close to the bore size. Even though the pistons don't protrude higher than the block face, he is just worried when the gasket compresses that it might clip the gasket.
Is this an something to be concerned about, and if it is, are there head gaskets avalaible for oversize engines? I don't think I've ever come across different ones when buying parts.
Pictures attached.
Thanks!
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